No more ubiquitous dump stats !?

[Fifth Element]

You'll never again see a Wizard with high Dex, a Paladin with high Wisdom or an archer Ranger with Strength, unless it's people who don't know what they're doing.

I think that's a rather large leap to take at this point. And it's also very dismissive toward hypothetical people in the future.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think that's a rather large leap to take at this point. And it's also very dismissive toward hypothetical people in the future.

I don't think it is. Look at the rogue description that was released. It even suggested which 3 attributes to focus on. So unless there's some hidden advantage to the various attributes that we haven't heard yet (possible, but unlikely), a Rogue has no reason at all to waste points in Int, unless he really likes knowledge skills for some reason, and to me, that's hardly worth losing what could be gained by putting those points elsewhere.

 

[The Little Raven]

As soon as people figure out that they can just completely ignore half of the attributes without consequence, count on them to do so.

MAD is a poor mechanic for a class-based system, and it's reduction in 4e is nothing but a good thing.

 

[Falling Icicle]

MAD is a poor mechanic for a class-based system, and it's reduction in 4e is nothing but a good thing.

I couldn't disagree more, but I've never been one to look on min/maxing as a good thing. Why even have attributes then? I tire of cookie cutter characters that always fit ridid streotypes because the alternatives are so suboptimal and they're screwing over their character if they try to break the mold. They could have made every attribute desirable for every class. Instead, they just made it easier than ever to just ignore them. A huge step in the wrong direction, IMO.

 

[Ximenes088]

They could have made every attribute desirable for every class.

How? How do you make every attribute desirable for every class in a way that will make a wizard as eager to take Strength as he is to take Intelligence? And would it be a good thing if you succeeded?

 

[Bishmon]

And I'll never get over Int adding to AC/Reflex. I've never known a single brainiac that would be good at avoiding hits in a brawl. There's a reason professional fighters train to improve their physique rather than train by reading books.

There's also a reason that professional fighters, and pretty much every professional athlete, studies film of their opponents: if you have the knowledge of what to expect, it's much easier to avoid and/or counter.

I'm not making the case the 4E representation of that is good or elegant, just that there's certainly a basis for what they're doing.

 

[Bishmon]

How? How do you make every attribute desirable for every class in a way that will make a wizard as eager to take Strength as he is to take Intelligence? And would it be a good thing if you succeeded?

I don't think you want to make it so every attribute is exactly equal in every class, but just that every attribute is at least desirable in some notable way, so there's some tradeoffs.

 

[Stogoe]

Strenght/Con is the worst in that any non-melee character will dump Strength.

You're still thinking that melee exploits will all be Str based. This is not true in the slightest.

 

[Aezoc]

I don't think you want to make it so every attribute is exactly equal in every class, but just that every attribute is at least desirable in some notable way, so there's some tradeoffs.

Would it really make that much of a difference if Str provided slightly more benefit to wizards, Int to rogues, etc? I don't see how it matters, honestly. Anyone who's picking their stats to flesh out a character concept they have will do so regardless, and anyone who wants to min/max still won't put points in the slightly-less-bad stats, because they're still sub-optimal to some degree.

In my mind, this is still an improvement over 3e, because while there still will be dump stats for a given class, there at least won't be one (nearly) universally ignored stat like Cha. If you want to cut down on the min/maxing in your games, rather than trying to tweak the value of each stat for each class, I'd just make the point buy costs ramp up a little more steeply.

 

[Felon]

This has been discussed in many threads, but it seems that most of the discussion is as to whether or not STAT is a dump stat or not.

It seems to me that dump stats will always be around, but there is no longer one ubiquitous STAT that all PCs of a CLASS always pick.

Actual choices! With consequences likely for feats and the like, but nothing suboptimal.

This, to my mind, is a good thing.

OK, what are the "actual choices" here? Whoopie, someone in the party has a low number by their Con score on their character sheet.

I mean, let's say some guy with a 4e warrior character will dump-stat Con. It's not because he's chosen to play a frail and unhealthy character, but rather because he's substituted Str for their Fort defense bonus, and he realizes the hit point gain from Con is small, and maybe he's figured out various other ways to marginalize the importance of Con for whatever's left over (through racial traits, feats, class features, or whatever). So he's still plenty sturdy, he's just found a way to be sturdy without having distribute any points in Con.

So now there's a guy in the party who has a low number next to his Con score, and has a penalty that he rarely takes note of. What did that accomplish that was so great?

In another scenario, a guy with a wizard character has to decide what score to assign Charisma. Should he invest anything? Well, it affects Charisma-based skills, but this is the same guy who used to dump-stat Cha in 3.5e. He doesn't care about how unappealing his character is it if means steering resources away from maximizing his butt-kicking potential. What else is Cha good for? Well, let's see....ah, yes, Will defense. But he can use Wis for that as well. So, now he has to decide whether the Wis-based checks his character makes will be of more important than the Cha-based checks.

Regardless of which he chooses, what does the choice accomplish that I should applaud?

Final scenario: a guy tries to design a 4e rogue with a high Int score. He invests the points, but he's already got a good Dexterity, so it's a waste because the system interpolates Int and Dex.

Now, why should I love this development?

I'ld also like to add that there was no ubiquitous dump stat in 3.5e, at least not any more than there will be in 4e. Charisma, you say? Anyone who wanted to be good at social skills suffered if they penalized Cha. So did sorcerers and paladins and many classes that came after them (warlocks, warmages, favored souls, healers, marshals...). And in 4e, if a character doesn't cherish face-man skills or have some class ability based off of Cha, then that player will still have a strong incentive to dump-stat it. Nothing changed there, except that he has more cause now to turn around and dump-stat Wis.