No more WotC Star Wars site

[Plane Sailing]

Count how many times a hero gets shot in the films. Go on.

Compare to how often a hero gets shot when playing the Star Wars SAGA RPG.

It's the primary difference between the two mediums. In the Star Wars RPG, a hero gets shot a *lot* of times. Often twice or more in the same combat. (There was one combat near the end of Dawn of Defiance where most of the group used 5+ Destiny points just to stay alive from attacks, because you can only take one or two shots before going down).

Now, the Saga healing system works if you have basically one or two combats per day. More than that, and it falls apart rapidly. Guess how many combats were in Dawn of Defiance? Lot more than that? Sure there were!

To make a healing surge more attritional, I'd only allow 1 or 2 surges to be regained per night; perhaps allowing healing to return more. However, with the high incidence of characters getting hit, you must allow more healing if you want the game to be able to flow.

Cheers!

That's why I loved the wounds\vitality thing in the first D20 star wars system. In fact I've always liked wounds\vitality systems (I first created one for my 1e D&D game back in 1983!)

I know that some people don't like the vulnerability to crits it provides - personally I don't have a problem with that, especially if you have a rule that 0 wounds for major characters == dying (not instant death), or some use of destiny points or something similar to cheat death in those circumstances.

That gives the safety net against random bad luck, but mimics scenes like luke losing his hand in Empire, Leia getting shot on ewokworld in Return and so forth.

Cheers

 

[MerricB]

I really didn't enjoy the WP/VP system: it just came up way too often in my admittedly brief experience with that version of the game.

It should be stated that I played in a really glorious campaign of the original West End Games edition of Star Wars when I was at University that lasted for three years. It was incredible how fun that campaign was.

I had a lot of problems with Saga because its foundations are shaky: the implications of skills targeting defenses weren't thought through, and I think you understand my problems with the healing system. The design work on top of that was first rate: there were always new things coming out that I wanted to take. (It should be noted that when the campaign started, we had a fraction of the options that we had by the time it ended).

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

That's why I loved the woundsvitality thing in the first D20 star wars system. In fact I've always liked woundsvitality systems (I first created one for my 1e D&D game back in 1983!)

I know that some people don't like the vulnerability to crits it provides - personally I don't have a problem with that, especially if you have a rule that 0 wounds for major characters == dying (not instant death), or some use of destiny points or something similar to cheat death in those circumstances.

That gives the safety net against random bad luck, but mimics scenes like luke losing his hand in Empire, Leia getting shot on ewokworld in Return and so forth.

Heh. Funnily enough, the first example (Luke in Empire) is the most attritional combat in the series (with the possible exception of the LS duel in RotJ). Luke fights for several minutes, getting hit by a lot of things, then eventually runs out of hit points and breath and gets his hand cut off instead of dying. (Destiny point?)

The second example is interesting: it really is a bolt from the blue (or critical) when Leia gets hit. Or is it? She is knocked down for a few moments, but then is fine enough to shoot the stormtroopers. In SW SE, perhaps it is a critical hit knocking her down to half hit points and down a little on the condition track... and after a few swift actions catching her breath, she's ready to go again! Or perhaps not that explanation.

Cheers!

 

[slwoyach]

I'm not shedding tears over here, I liked Star Wars D20 but didn't like Saga at all. The only saga I like is the old SAGA card game.

 

[dm4hire]

I was thinking about this some more and I am wondering if WotC is gambling on getting the license back later? If you think about it WotC/TSR in relation to their products have always placed certain settings/games on the shelf to later bring them back. Granted some settings/games are still waiting to return, but the trend is still there. However since Star Wars is not their IP they don't have that luxury. With the market saturated as it is with the current Saga books still being available there's really no need for a new system yet. However if WotC lets the game lapse as they have and waits a few years they can then approach Lucas to relaunch the game again without the expense of maintaining the license. The gamble is that the license could be given to another company in the mean time, but since Lucas is in camp with Hasbro with everything else I doubt WotC would have a problem getting it back.

 

[Stormonu]

I was thinking about this some more and I am wondering if WotC is gambling on getting the license back later? If you think about it WotC/TSR in relation to their products have always placed certain settings/games on the shelf to later bring them back. Granted some settings/games are still waiting to return, but the trend is still there. However since Star Wars is not their IP they don't have that luxury. With the market saturated as it is with the current Saga books still being available there's really no need for a new system yet. However if WotC lets the game lapse as they have and waits a few years they can then approach Lucas to relaunch the game again without the expense of maintaining the license. The gamble is that the license could be given to another company in the mean time, but since Lucas is in camp with Hasbro with everything else I doubt WotC would have a problem getting it back.

I personally sense a bit of desperation in the Star Wars toy lines; they looked like they were about to fade out just prior to the release of the Clone Wars CG series, got a little oomph with the new series, but I think it's finally reaching its end life.

I'm thinking Hasbro Star Wars line is about to go "back in the box" for a little while to build up some value again.

 

[pukunui]

So how about it, Rodney? Will we ever get the last set of errata or not? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[pukunui]

FYI: I got an e-mail from Rodney a while back. He said not in any official capacity, but he might post some unofficial errata on the WotC forums if he ever gets around to it (which is unlikely).

 

[pawsplay]

I had a lot of problems with Saga because its foundations are shaky: the implications of skills targeting defenses weren't thought through, and I think you understand my problems with the healing system. The design work on top of that was first rate: there were always new things coming out that I wanted to take. (It should be noted that when the campaign started, we had a fraction of the options that we had by the time it ended).

Cheers!

Good observations. On top of that, I think the class system failed to work satisfactorily. The designers couldn't seem to decide if classes were archetypes or game constructs. In other words, what is a Scout? They started out as "the Survival guys" but by the end could also be spies, which was originally a Scoundrel stick by default. I suspect the game might have worked better with three base classes, Soldier, Expert, and Jedi, and a slightly modified skill system. Then you overlay a d20 Modern type Occupation system on top of that.

 

[korjik]

Good observations. On top of that, I think the class system failed to work satisfactorily. The designers couldn't seem to decide if classes were archetypes or game constructs. In other words, what is a Scout? They started out as "the Survival guys" but by the end could also be spies, which was originally a Scoundrel stick by default. I suspect the game might have worked better with three base classes, Soldier, Expert, and Jedi, and a slightly modified skill system. Then you overlay a d20 Modern type Occupation system on top of that.

Considering that the primary driver for the development of SAGA was 4e, it isnt really suprising that the game is a little rough around the edges.

Look at the attacks from non-soldier/jedi compared to the defences of opponents. +3/4 per level for the character, +1 per level for the defence. The skill situation is the same, just worse.

I feel you almost dont need any classes. At least you almost dont need more than one. Have alternating bonus feat/talent as you go up levels and a fixed attack and defence progression. It dosent make being a jedi very easy, but that could be handled.

I was really disappointed with the license being dropped. The next iteration of the game would have been pretty good.