No more WotC Star Wars site

I seemed clear to me early on that editing and design was not going well with Saga, certainly not as well as D&D 3e/4e, not even as well as Star Wars d20 revised. The system had some real gems in its design, but the class system ended up nonsensical, the math was all bad, and no one could get their story straight on do's and don't's when it came to rules expansions. Fundamentally, the system could not duplicate some of the most notable scenes in Star Wars, ranging from Mace Windu taking on a platoon of droids at once, Sidious carving up three Jedi in three seconds, Vader choking a Rebel trooper, and so forth. The resources were not there to reboot the line as Star Wars Saga Revised, although they probably thought about it, so they tried to finish out the run with some good sellers and end it.

Although having said that, SAGA covered a lot more of the traditional Star Wars bases in terms of the force than the earlier WotC editions did. The earlier editions didn't even have sensing with the blast visor down, for goodness sake!

Cheers
 

log in or register to remove this ad


My main issue was with Jedi. Simply put, a low-level Jedi is much better off using Force Powers than Lightsabers. High level Jedi might switch this around, but only if they've focused on it very tightly - but at least it's a fair contest. IMO, Skill Checks should never, ever be made against Defenses in general. This is even if you restrict access to Skill Focus: UTF; a +8 or +9 bonus is simply impossible to get with a melee weapon at low levels.

This is exactly backwards to how I want it. Lower-level Jedi should mostly be dependent on their lightsabers; tossing around Force Blasts left and right is so ... non-genre-appropriate.

However, I completely agree with you here. Mechanically things didn't really match up right (even if Yoda and Dracula had to resort to lightsabres in the end rather than fancy force powers!)

Cheers
 

Stormonu: That's pretty much what Gary Sarli, SWSE's lead designer, is doing with his e20: System Evolved game.

Just a correction here: Gary Sarli was one of the freelance designers on SWSE. The lead designer of SWSE, Rodney Thompson of WotC, is stll at WotC and is the lead on Dark Sun and also works on the D&D Essentials line now.
 

Interesting discussion. Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone have any good links on how to fix Saga issues?

I'm going to running Dawn of Defiance as my first dip into Saga rules later in the year. I'm goign to start making some character to familiarise myself with the rules, it will be our first non-dnd game in, maybe, 15 years.. :D
 

Interesting discussion. Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone have any good links on how to fix Saga issues?

I'm going to running Dawn of Defiance as my first dip into Saga rules later in the year. I'm goign to start making some character to familiarise myself with the rules, it will be our first non-dnd game in, maybe, 15 years..
There is really only one significant issue. For some groups. The Skill Focus: Use the Force feat is viewed as too unbalancing by placing too much power in to a low level Jedi’s hands too quickly. It is, far and away, the best feat for any jedi to take. Whenever there is a feat that is absolutely the first “feat” to take without any debate about it, you know that the feat is too powerful. I don’t have that much of a problem with Skill Focus:UtF, but many do and I understand their arguments and I can’t fault their reasoning.

If you do have an issue with Skill Focus: UtF, I would suggest that the best fix is for the feat to be restricted to those who have at least one level in the prestige classes Jedi Master or Jedi Knight, only – or their corresponding brethren within the Sith. (You can make allowances for other Force Traditions prestige classes on an ad hoc basis. Basically, this rule puts off the significant power increase in the overall skill bonus to UtF until 8th level – which seems right to many GMs.

It does mean that jedi who are not Jedi Knights are significantly less powerful. Of course, depending on where you sit on the argument, that might not be a bad thing at all.

With respect to Dawn of Defiance, the main issues with that AP relate to the expansion books you may be using in your campaign. There is definitely a power creep at work in SWSE over the course of the game’s development. While the creep is reasonably balanced across the classes (they all increase in power within an acceptable range, inter se, if all of the expansions are in use) the resulting increase in power then breaks the DoD AP if you don’t revise DoD to integrate the expansion material within it.

Short strokes: if you are going to let in a bunch of SWSE expansions – you need to revamp the NPCs and foes in the DoD campaign to compensate. IF you don’t, the PCs are going to blow through the combats in DoD as written too easily.

Simply put, when the rules used to make the NPCs are not the same as the rules used to make the PCs – problems can (and in this case, do) occur.

I also think the overall climax and final instalment in the DoD campaign is a letdown and is not “uber” enough – but that is a rules independent observation. The big mission at the end seems to me to be too trivial in many respects – or at least – it does not seem to be a big enough deal to cap off a lengthy AP. This is because the players KNOW that the Empire succeeds in their starship construction efforts because we've SEEN the result on screen in the movies. As a result, there is no sense of victory or having made a difference.

Of course, that's the problem with setting ANY Star Wars campaign within the Rebellion/Dark Times eras. The immediate future has already been written and we all know how it turns out. It's why I don't like the Rebellion/Dark Times era and far prefer the Knights of the Old Republic timeline -- or better still, the Old Republic era that is being depicted in the forthcoming MMO by BioWare.

That’s my take on DoD. YMMV.
 
Last edited:


Has anyone heard any rumors of someone else taking up the license for RPG purposes?
No, and if WotC thought it wasn't cost-effective anymore, who really could afford it?

Honestly, the more I think about it, I think that we don't need any more support for a Star Wars RPG. Like, yes, need, no.

Between 14 books for Saga Edition, over a dozen for the RCR and OCR editions, and over 100 for the d6 game, not to mention non-gaming setting sourcebooks that have been made (The New Essential Chronology, The Essential Atlas, ect.), do we really need more books, especially when the same turf is tread over and over so many times? (How many versions of a Rebellion-era sourcebook do we really need: One for SAGA, one for OCR, the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook for the d6 SWRPG?)

We've got entire sectors of space detailed out down to each world in each system (Tapani sector from the d6 SWRPG box set Lords of the Expanse), we've got every canonical star system charted and located (The Essential Atlas), we've got loads of random tables for generating new worlds (Galaxy Guide: Scouts and Planets of the Galaxy from the d6 SWRPG), we've got loads of creatures and antagonists for each system, we've got the entire history of the setting charted out in significant detail from about 4000 BBY to about 145 ABY (and at least loose sketches of history going back to about 30000 BBY, with the Rakata and Hutt Empires that predate the Republic by a few millennia). We've got multiple editions of books full of starship stats (Starships of the Galaxy for OCR and SAGA).

Enough minis have been made to run games in any era from Old Republic through Legacy, and the Starship minis are enough to run from the decades predating the Clone Wars through the late New Republic Era (only really missing Yuuzhan Vong ships and Legacy-era ships, or Pre-Ruusan Old Republic designs, or some space station minis)

So, while it's sad that it's not supported, there is plenty out there to work with.
 

Just a correction here: Gary Sarli was one of the freelance designers on SWSE. The lead designer of SWSE, Rodney Thompson of WotC, is stll at WotC and is the lead on Dark Sun and also works on the D&D Essentials line now.
IIRC, Rodney was a freelancer at the time the SWSE core rules were written and it was because of his work on that game that he got a fulltime job at WotC. Admittedly, Gary is listed as a "developer" rather than a "designer", but it was my understanding that he actually wrote the bulk of the game's rules. And he is now working on its successor, e20: System Evolved.

Interesting discussion. Not to hijack the thread, but does anyone have any good links on how to fix Saga issues?
Wander over to the Praxeum on the WotC Star Wars forums. Lots of people have posted their house rules and such over there. I've got a number of little house rules here and there. The biggest one I use is a "skill attack" system that fixes the math where skill checks are used against defense scores (Force powers are the biggie here, but Deception and Persuasion also come into play). Some people like to just restrict the Skill Focus feat, but that just doesn't do it for me. My house rule is more complex but it actually addresses the underlying math progression issues, whereas restricting Skill Focus does not.

I'm going to running Dawn of Defiance as my first dip into Saga rules later in the year. I'm goign to start making some character to familiarise myself with the rules, it will be our first non-dnd game in, maybe, 15 years.. :D
I'm currently running a DoD campaign. You should check out my recaps and resource group over at WotC: Absolut Dawn. I am most definitely not running it as-is, and I have a few ideas on how to "beef up" the story so the ending has more meaning. Be sure to also check out the Dawn of Defiance subforum on the WotC boards. Lots of good "enhancement" ideas for each chapter there.

Has anyone heard any rumors of someone else taking up the license for RPG purposes?
Yes, I've heard rumors. The first was that Battlefront Miniatures, based right here in New Zealand, were going to pick up the minis license, but I think that was just an April Fool's joke. The other rumor is that some Russian company has picked it up. WotC had the right to continue selling its Star Wars products through August, so perhaps we'll learn something come September?

Enough minis have been made to run games in any era from Old Republic through Legacy, and the Starship minis are enough to run from the decades predating the Clone Wars through the late New Republic Era (only really missing Yuuzhan Vong ships and Legacy-era ships, or Pre-Ruusan Old Republic designs, or some space station minis)
I would've liked to have seen a few more starship sets, and maybe one or two more character sets. There are a few minis missing (and a few too many duplicates of certain characters, like Vader and Luke). However, on the starship front, there's always Momir Farooq's 3D cardboard starship minis: http://momirfarooq.webng.com/site/ssb/ssb.htm
 
Last edited:

IIRC, Rodney was a freelancer at the time the SWSE core rules were written and it was because of his work on that game that he got a fulltime job at WotC. Admittedly, Gary is listed as a "developer" rather than a "designer", but it was my understanding that he actually wrote the bulk of the game's rules. And he is now working on its successor, e20: System Evolved.

Christopher Perkins was the lead designer of the original core rulebook, with Owen Stephens and myself freelance designing. Gary Sarli developed the book. I feel, and the others can chime in here if they want, that the bulk of the design of the book was a team effort, with some directives coming from WotC, some original design from Owen and I, some design coming from development changes, and all of it combining to produce Saga Edition. Saying that any one person wrote the bulk of the game's rules is incorrect, in my book.

I was the lead designer of all of the subsequent sourcebooks on the line.
 

Remove ads

Top