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[Obryn]

Yeah I don't see the problem either, tbh. I suppose that a first level character can run around with +13 Force Slam - but that's not that big a deal. The damage inflicted by these attacks is rarely anough to be determinative of the battle on its own. Which does not minimze the advantages conferred by Force Slam, but knocking the foe prone also gives the for a +5 cover bonus from ranged attacks from ranged allies, too. So it's an attack which is a mixed blassing.

I have a pretty big issue when one way of attacking gives you a nearly automatic hit, and another is 50-50, at best. When that way of attacking runs counter to how I expect Jedi to work, it's a problem for me. It might not be for everyone, but IMO it's the system's achilles heel.

Only an idiot stands toe to toe to allow a Jedi armed with a humming plasma sword to potentially get off a full round attack on them so that's not a deficiency in the rules, AFAIAC. To the contrary: that's a good thing. In order for the Jedi to prevent a foe from withdrawing, they have to be flanked or otherwise boxed in, or knocked prone. How is this a problem? What I am missing here?

Multiple attacks.

People who are shooting blasters of various sorts can get multiple attacks basically every round. People with lightsabers have to hope the other guy is going to stand there and take it. This is a pretty major flaw in melee combat, IMO.

One way to solve this - and the way I think I'd go - is by changing to a 4e-style action system, with no full-round actions. Fitting multiple attacks into a standard action honestly isn't a big deal for me, especially when you consider the large accuracy tradeoff in SWSE. Another way would be to allow Melee combatants to move half their speed as part of their full-round attack. A third way would be to give melee folks an ability to punish people who move away.

YMMV - but I don't like that system, as-is.

-O

 

[Steel_Wind]

Multiple attacks.

People who are shooting blasters of various sorts can get multiple attacks basically every round. People with lightsabers have to hope the other guy is going to stand there and take it. This is a pretty major flaw in melee combat, IMO.

Multiple attacks are always at extremely significant negatives to hit far beyond what any D&D player experiences. Even if your character is built to ameliorate those effects, the huge negs persist until about 12th level or so.

Given the considerable power imbalance in the game in favor of Jedi already (nobody else gets deflect), this is not a major flaw. It is, to the contrary, one of the means by which Jedi do not utterly dominate combat beyond the realm of the acceptable (which they already can do in large part).

But when it comes to multiple attacks -- the Jedi ALREADY get them and without the massive negatives everyone else gets. You cannot ignore the incredible power of Redirect which is always on and lasts the whole encounter -- every encounter. So, in addition to the awesome power of deflect, the Jedi you shot at (and missed) sends your beam attack right back at you (or another target of the Jedi’s choosing) using their kick-ass Use The Force modifier to attack.

So there is already an extra ranged attack(s) that a fifth level and higher Jedi is going to have during the course of each round of combat because of their redirect ability -- keying off of their skill bonus for Use the Force, too. You want to alter the combat rules to give them even more attacks -- without the Jedi needing to work for it?

Changing this "flaw" to give Jedi a chance to attack more often than they already get -- which is effectively twice or three times every round already -- and leaving the full attack actions to occur on when the Jedi manoeuvres, flanks and boxes the foe in -- is going to result in Jedi blowing through the bad guys at mid-level while totally overshadowing all other non-Jedi characters.

That is not a desirable result, imo.

The problem of Jedi overshadowing every other player has been a problem in prior incarnations of the Star Wars RPG and from time to time rises its ugly head in SW:SE as well. That said, the Jedi feel plenty Jedi-like even with the trade-offs present in SW:SE.

So, while I take your point, I don't see it as a bug - but a feature; moreover, the "cure" is worse than the disease.

I'm quite happy with the manner in which withdraw affects melee in Star Wars: SE as it currently stands. It doesn't need changing, imo.

 

[Obryn]

But when it comes to multiple attacks -- the Jedi ALREADY get them and without the ,assive negatives everyone else gets. You cannot ignore the incredible power of Redirect which is always on and lasts the whole encounter -- every encounter. So, in addition to the awesome power of deflect, the jedi you shot at (and missed) sends your beam attack right back at you (or another traget of the jedi's choosing) using their kick-ass Use The Force modifier to attack.

(1) If the Jedi takes Redirect. That's far from a sure thing. Talent slots are precious, and some Jedi might want to actually get better at lightsabering things.
(2) The problem with the kick-ass UTF modifier, I addressed above - I see that as part of the skill vs. defense bug, not as a balancing feature.
(3) Every shot after the first faces significant penalties, anyway.

Also, for genre reasons, I don't think "just redirect everything, kids!" is a great fix.

The problem of Jedi overshadowing every other player has been a problem in prior incarantions of the Star Wars RPG and from time to time rises its ugly head in SW:SE as well. That said, the Jedi feel plenty jedi-like even with the trade-offs present in SW:SE.

That's just it - your average melee Jedi isn't even up to par.

Your average Force-wizard Jedi, though, does overshadow the rest of the party, especially at low- to mid-levels. I haven't even mentioned how Mind Trick breaks pretty much every social encounter.

-O

 

[pukunui]

Like I mentioned, this isn't my main concern. I can see that it could be someone's, but it's not mine. Games follow rules, and movies follow plot. I think it's a noble effort to try and get the two to match for a licensed game, but I expect a few holes here and there.

Oh sure. It just seemed to me like you were complaining that it was a weakness of the game that it couldn't replicate certain scenes from the Star Wars milieu. EDIT: Sorry, I got mixed up there. For some reason I thought you'd made the comments about specific scenes, but it was actually pawsplay. My bad.

That's very, very workable - and I'd be okay adopting that, too. But there are cases where I want the skill to be higher than an attack roll - Deflection and Blocking being the two biggies.

In the case of Block and Deflect, you would still use the regular, higher skill modifier because they aren't targeting a defense score. You would only use the UtF skill attack modifier with Force powers and talents that specifically target an opponent's defense score (so mind trick, move object, Vanish, etc).

Regardless, I think it's a good solution - and probably the best one, honestly. I like the fact that the attack roll and skill bonus are kept separate... Frankly, that's the only way to work it which makes sense, given the effect DCs in the force power listings.

I agree. When I started planning for my first SWSE game as GM, I looked at all the various options for "fixing" the skills vs defenses problem. Some were pretty simple, like limiting Skill Focus to a scaling bonus or a minimum level or something, but that just seems to mess up the whole "nonheroic specialist" concept. And then Raul suggested his house rule and it seemed like a perfect fit. It's not terribly complicated, but it fixes the math all right.

Multiple attacks.

People who are shooting blasters of various sorts can get multiple attacks basically every round. People with lightsabers have to hope the other guy is going to stand there and take it. This is a pretty major flaw in melee combat, IMO.

One way to solve this - and the way I think I'd go - is by changing to a 4e-style action system, with no full-round actions. Fitting multiple attacks into a standard action honestly isn't a big deal for me, especially when you consider the large accuracy tradeoff in SWSE. Another way would be to allow Melee combatants to move half their speed as part of their full-round attack. A third way would be to give melee folks an ability to punish people who move away.

YMMV - but I don't like that system, as-is.

I think the SWSE designers realized this fairly early on, considering how they included the Withdrawal Strike and Tumble Defense feats in the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide. If you're not familiar with them, the first makes it so no one can withdraw from a square you threaten as long as you're wielding a particular melee weapon, while the second makes it more difficult for opponents to tumble through your threatened squares.

There's also the Mobile Combatant Jedi Guardian talent in The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide. If you move adjacent to an opponent, you can spend a swift action so that if they move or withdraw, you can move with them and they provoke an attack of opportunity from you.

The KOTORCG also includes a Jedi Knight talent, Mobile Attack (lightsabers), that lets you move up to your speed after making a full attack.


So my point is: the devs very early on introduced a number of feats and talents specifically to help melee combatants "lock down" their opponents.

 

[Obryn]

So my point is: the devs very early on introduced a number of feats and talents specifically to help melee combatants "lock down" their opponents.

Yep, I noticed that, but I tend to get lost with the number of Talents available in SWSE. It could really, really use something along the lines of DDI or the Character Builder. Kenad Broki's sheet is great, but it's just not quite there.

Also, much like Expertise in 4e, this is a "feat patch" or a "talent patch." Or, to put it another way, a character tax - where you need to spend one of your character-building resources to make up for a problem with the core system.

I think those are still workable feats, but I'd rather apply a general system patch.

None of this is to say I dislike SWSE. I think it's overall a brilliant game. But after you play a game for around a year, you get a pretty good idea of its warts.

-O

 

[pukunui]

Yep, I noticed that, but I tend to get lost with the number of Talents available in SWSE. It could really, really use something along the lines of DDI or the Character Builder. Kenad Broki's sheet is great, but it's just not quite there.

What you want is ewokontoast's Saga Index spreadsheets then (here). They're Excel-based, so you can search for specific things, limit each tab by book, class, species, etc. Very handy.

Also, much like Expertise in 4e, this is a "feat patch" or a "talent patch." Or, to put it another way, a character tax - where you need to spend one of your character-building resources to make up for a problem with the core system.

I think those are still workable feats, but I'd rather apply a general system patch.

I agree. System patches would be better, but it seems like WotC is more inclined to go the "tax" route, especially if 4e is anything to go by ...

Where withdrawing is concerned, though, I think the main issue is simply that in SWSE, the classes are really little more than toolkits. Aside from a few basics and some feats, there are no unique class features. Everything is optional by way of the talent system. Both D&D 3e and 4e have mechanics similar to SWSE's withdrawal ("5 foot step" and "shift" respectively), but in 4e you've got various class features that can impact on an opponent's ability to shift away. I can't remember if there was any built-in "anti-5 foot step" mechanics in 3e, though. It's been too long. LOL.

None of this is to say I dislike SWSE. I think it's overall a brilliant game. But after you play a game for around a year, you get a pretty good idea of its warts.

Definitely. Now that I'm GMing it after having been a player for two years, I'm finding all sorts of things that I thought were actual rules but aren't (like a tool kit granting a +2 equipment bonus on Mechanics checks) and various other bits that are just wonky (like the errata'd area attack rules as applied to grenades and the prone rules).

 

[Imaro]

Just curious, I am thinking of putting our D&D 4e game on hiatus and running a SW Saga ed. game... does anyone have or know where I can download the errata for the books?

 

[pukunui]

Just curious, I am thinking of putting our D&D 4e game on hiatus and running a SW Saga ed. game... does anyone have or know where I can download the errata for the books?

Click here.

 

[pawsplay]

1) Mace Windu taking on a platoon of droids at once - this is from the original Clone Wars animated series, which is generally regarded as ridiculously over-the-top anyway, so the fact that the Saga rules can't emulate what's seen in that series should not be regarded as a weakness of the game system.

No, I am not a fan of that series. I am talking about the arena battle on Geonosis.

2) Sidious carving up three Jedi in three seconds - I reckon this probably can be emulated in Saga with judicious use of Destiny Points, Force Points and perhaps some feats like Whirlwind Attack and Triple Attack. Failing that, there's nothing wrong with a bit of GM fiat (there was even an article, entitled "Power Beyond Belief", that advocated doing just that for some of the more extreme Sith abilities).

Absolutely impossible. To succeed, he would have to be able to take down Kit Fisto in one hit, which cannot be done.

3) Vader choking a Rebel trooper - I'm assuming you're referring to Vader physically choking the captain of the Tantive IV in A New Hope? I'm not sure it's entirely impossible, but it probably involves a number of talents and/or feats that Vader wouldn't likely have. But I'm sure you could find a way to replicate that scene using Saga.

He would need the Pin and Crush feats, which no published version of Darth Vader possesses. The devs response was that he was actually Force Choking, and he just held the guy up with his superhumanly powerful cybernetic arms for appearances, not because his cyborg strength would actually be useful for grappling.

 

[pukunui]

Absolutely impossible. To succeed, he would have to be able to take down Kit Fisto in one hit, which cannot be done.

Is that really a weakness of the game system, though? Would you really want your high-level Jedi Master to be killable in one hit? Would you have preferred it if Saga had kept the whole Wounds/Vitality mechanic?


Also, just because a published version of Darth Vader doesn't give him the Pin and Crush feats doesn't mean he can't have them. WotC's official statblocks are all rather weak (and in many cases erroneous). Besides, statting up iconic characters is a fairly subjective business. I wouldn't consider this one a weakness of the system either.