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[WhatGravitas]

Using SAGA for a hard sci-fi or cyberpunk game makes more sense than reproducing a 'generic space-opera'.

Y'know what I want to see? WotC talking to BioWare to pick up a Mass Effect RPG license (akin to Green Ronin picking up Dragon Age). SAGA would be a solid base for modelling the ME universe, especially as Biotics/Tech powers would work very well in the Force system...

...ah, one can dream, no?

Cheers, LT.

 

[SoldierBlue]

Steel Wind/Pukini,

Thanks for your endorsements of the game. You have inspired me to get on the wagon - I'm forging ahead with my plans to GM.

I've been trying to bend a system somewhere into a game that rips off Alien Legion for nigh 20 years - SWSE may be the ticket.

And I'll pursue finding the AP - Dawn of Defiance - as I am torn between bouts of inspired creation and laziness and/or workaholisism - so I'm always happy to GM ready-made-products.

Thanks to both of you...

 

[pukunui]

And I'll pursue finding the AP - Dawn of Defiance - as I am torn between bouts of inspired creation and laziness and/or workaholisism - so I'm always happy to GM ready-made-products.

No worries. If you want DoD, click here.

It's also worth checking out all the "Enhancing DoD module" threads in the WotC DoD forum. DoD makes for a great basis for a campaign, but it can be a bit thin in places, as well as a bit nonsensical or just plain wonky in others. Quite a few people have put heaps of effort into fleshing it out.

You could also check out my DoD group on the WotC site: absolut dawn

Fundamentally, the system could not duplicate some of the most notable scenes in Star Wars, ranging from Mace Windu taking on a platoon of droids at once, Sidious carving up three Jedi in three seconds, Vader choking a Rebel trooper, and so forth.

Old comments, I know, but I feel I cannot leave them unaddressed.

1) Mace Windu taking on a platoon of droids at once - this is from the original Clone Wars animated series, which is generally regarded as ridiculously over-the-top anyway, so the fact that the Saga rules can't emulate what's seen in that series should not be regarded as a weakness of the game system.

2) Sidious carving up three Jedi in three seconds - I reckon this probably can be emulated in Saga with judicious use of Destiny Points, Force Points and perhaps some feats like Whirlwind Attack and Triple Attack. Failing that, there's nothing wrong with a bit of GM fiat (there was even an article, entitled "Power Beyond Belief", that advocated doing just that for some of the more extreme Sith abilities).

3) Vader choking a Rebel trooper - I'm assuming you're referring to Vader physically choking the captain of the Tantive IV in A New Hope? I'm not sure it's entirely impossible, but it probably involves a number of talents and/or feats that Vader wouldn't likely have. But I'm sure you could find a way to replicate that scene using Saga.


I'm not saying it's perfect, though. There are some scenes and/or abilities seen in the films that Saga genuinely can't replicate, like jumping vertical distances. Having to spend a Destiny Point to move your speed vertically with the surge power just seems too costly for scenes like Obi-Wan leaping up to chase after Qui-Gonn and Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace or Luke leaping up out of the carbonite pit in The Empire Strikes Back.

 

[SoldierBlue]

Found DoD!
Thanks.

 

[Obryn]

Old comments, I know, but I feel I cannot leave them unaddressed.

1) Mace Windu taking on a platoon of droids at once - this is from the original Clone Wars animated series, which is generally regarded as ridiculously over-the-top anyway, so the fact that the Saga rules can't emulate what's seen in that series should not be regarded as a weakness of the game system.

2) Sidious carving up three Jedi in three seconds - I reckon this probably can be emulated in Saga with judicious use of Destiny Points, Force Points and perhaps some feats like Whirlwind Attack and Triple Attack. Failing that, there's nothing wrong with a bit of GM fiat (there was even an article, entitled "Power Beyond Belief", that advocated doing just that for some of the more extreme Sith abilities).

3) Vader choking a Rebel trooper - I'm assuming you're referring to Vader physically choking the captain of the Tantive IV in A New Hope? I'm not sure it's entirely impossible, but it probably involves a number of talents and/or feats that Vader wouldn't likely have. But I'm sure you could find a way to replicate that scene using Saga.

Erm... "Yes, you can, you just need to use GM Fiat or serious houserules" isn't a serious response. I mean, that will magically solve every problem.

I have no problem if events in the movie can't quite be replicated; movies and games necessarily follow different logic, and movies aren't held to a standard of self-consistency. I think Saga did a good job of it, overall, but it didn't take as close a look at it as it might have.

My main issue was with Jedi. Simply put, a low-level Jedi is much better off using Force Powers than Lightsabers. High level Jedi might switch this around, but only if they've focused on it very tightly - but at least it's a fair contest. IMO, Skill Checks should never, ever be made against Defenses in general. This is even if you restrict access to Skill Focus: UTF; a +8 or +9 bonus is simply impossible to get with a melee weapon at low levels.

This is exactly backwards to how I want it. Lower-level Jedi should mostly be dependent on their lightsabers; tossing around Force Blasts left and right is so ... non-genre-appropriate. What's more, the rules are set up to more or less gimp melee combat - the Withdraw action pretty thoroughly nerfs it.

I'm going to solve this in my next SWSE campaign by... bypassing it entirely. I have a "scoundrels" game in mind - kind of a mash-up between Star Wars and The Dirty Dozen. I'll need to hack a few other rules - I like the 4e action system, and think simply getting rid of Full-Round actions would go a long way towards fixing melee combat. But yeah, it's on the back-burner.

-O

 

[pukunui]

Erm... "Yes, you can, you just need to use GM Fiat or serious houserules" isn't a serious response. I mean, that will magically solve every problem.

Fair enough, but I bet you can still replicate that scene without resorting to GM fiat through use of Destiny Points, Force Points, and various feats and powers.

My main issue was with Jedi. Simply put, a low-level Jedi is much better off using Force Powers than Lightsabers. High level Jedi might switch this around, but only if they've focused on it very tightly - but at least it's a fair contest. IMO, Skill Checks should never, ever be made against Defenses in general. This is even if you restrict access to Skill Focus: UTF; a +8 or +9 bonus is simply impossible to get with a melee weapon at low levels.

This is exactly backwards to how I want it. Lower-level Jedi should mostly be dependent on their lightsabers; tossing around Force Blasts left and right is so ... non-genre-appropriate. What's more, the rules are set up to more or less gimp melee combat - the Withdraw action pretty thoroughly nerfs it.

I'm going to solve this in my next SWSE campaign by... bypassing it entirely. I have a "scoundrels" game in mind - kind of a mash-up between Star Wars and The Dirty Dozen. I'll need to hack a few other rules - I like the 4e action system, and think simply getting rid of Full-Round actions would go a long way towards fixing melee combat. But yeah, it's on the back-burner.

This is one area in which I wholeheartedly agree. I think the "skills vs defenses" issue is the single most glaring problem with the SWSE rules that never got fixed (and I honestly have no idea why).

However, for my game, I've adopted a Raul Torin's "skill attack modifier" house rule.

The "skill attack modifier" applies to the following skill uses:

Deception
- create a diversion to hide
- convey deceptive information

Persuasion
- improve an NPC's attitude
- intimidate an NPC

Use the Force
- use Force powers
- use some Force talents


To determine someone's skill attack modifier, use the following formula:

character level + ability modifier + miscellaneous modifiers


Character level: They get to add their full character level to the modifier (which is essentially like giving them full BAB with a weapon), but they do not get to add +5 for being trained or for having Skill Focus.
Ability modifier: This is always going to be Charisma, but it's probably a good idea to leave it open anyway. For instance, I have a player who took a talent called Fade Out (Galaxy of Intrigue) that lets him substitute his Stealth modifier for his Deception modifier when creating a diversion to hide, so in that instance, he's using his Dex modifier instead of his Charisma modifier.
Miscellaneous modifiers: These include a -5 penalty for not being trained in the skill (just like you take a -5 penalty for not being proficient with a particular weapon) and a +2 bonus for having Skill Focus in the skill (this makes Skill Focus more like Weapon Focus, but it provides a higher benefit because there aren't as many things that you can add to a skill modifier as there are with weapon modifiers). There are a few other modifiers that you could probably add in here, but they'll be dependent on a specific feat or talent or something and I haven't had time to go through every single one of them. Generally, though, an ability that adds a bonus to a skill would add a smaller bonus to the skill attack modifier.


NB. This skill attack modifier does not replace the regular skill modifier. It's in addition to it. So when you are using a Force power, you would make one attack roll, add your Use the Force skill attack modifier, and compare it to the relevant defense score of your target. If you hit, then you take the same roll result but add your regular Use the Force skill check modifier to determine the Force power's effect.



To give you an idea of how this works, let's say we have a Jedi with Skill Focus (Use the Force) and Charisma 16 (+3). We'll assume that he doesn't ever increase his Charisma score as he levels up.

At 1st level, his regular skill check modifier is going to be +13 (5 [trained] + 5 [skill focus] + 3 [ability modifier] + 0 [half level]). His skill attack modifier would only be +6 (1 [full level] + 3 [ability modifier] + 2 [skill focus]).

At 5th level, his skill check would be +15, whereas his skill attack would be +10.

At 10th level, these would be +18 and +15 respectively.

At 15th level, these would be +20 and +20 respectively.

At 20th level, these would be +23 and +25 respectively.


So the regular skill check starts out quite high at 1st, but doesn't get a whole lot higher by 20th level, while defense scores will have far outstripped it, meaning that a Force user is proportionately more powerful at low level than at high level. That doesn't make a lot of sense. However, with the skill attack modifier, it starts out fairly low (but comparable to an attack modifier for a conventional weapon) and progresses to the point where it's actually slightly higher by 20th level, thus making it so the Force user starts out proportionately weak at low level and becomes proportionately more powerful at high level.

 

[billd91]

Y'know what I want to see? WotC talking to BioWare to pick up a Mass Effect RPG license (akin to Green Ronin picking up Dragon Age). SAGA would be a solid base for modelling the ME universe, especially as Biotics/Tech powers would work very well in the Force system...

...ah, one can dream, no?

Cheers, LT.

That's exactly what we're doing on alternate Thursday nights - Mass Effect with the Saga rules. It's been working pretty well so far.

 

[Obryn]

Fair enough, but I bet you can still replicate that scene without resorting to GM fiat through use of Destiny Points, Force Points, and various feats and powers.

Like I mentioned, this isn't my main concern. I can see that it could be someone's, but it's not mine. Games follow rules, and movies follow plot. I think it's a noble effort to try and get the two to match for a licensed game, but I expect a few holes here and there.

This is one area in which I wholeheartedly agree. I think the "skills vs defenses" issue is the single most glaring problem with the SWSE rules that never got fixed (and I honestly have no idea why).

However, for my game, I've adopted a Raul Torin's "skill attack modifier" house rule.

That's very, very workable - and I'd be okay adopting that, too. But there are cases where I want the skill to be higher than an attack roll - Deflection and Blocking being the two biggies.

Regardless, I think it's a good solution - and probably the best one, honestly. I like the fact that the attack roll and skill bonus are kept separate... Frankly, that's the only way to work it which makes sense, given the effect DCs in the force power listings.

-O

 

[Skeld]

IMO, Skill Checks should never, ever be made against Defenses in general. This is even if you restrict access to Skill Focus: UTF; a +8 or +9 bonus is simply impossible to get with a melee weapon at low levels.

After having played SE for the last year in a mixed party (half-jedi, half non), this has been my group's #1 complaint. If I remember correctly, all 3 Jedi in our party had UTF modifiers of +12 or +13 at 1st level. One player decided to go "force wizard" with move object and mind trick. I saw it coming though (I'm the GM) and had a talk with the group before and after our first session, just to give them a heads-up about how certain force combos would wreck the game and force me to house rule to avoid spoiling the fun if over-used. Fortunately, my group is pretty reasonable and experienced, so they saw the potential for abuse. The +12 UTF move object versus the Will 10 Stormtropper is just dumb.

I wish SE wasn't stuck on the 1/2/5/10 progression for bonuses/penalties. a few +/-3 wouldn't have hurt the game. When next my group goes back to SE (after the current campaign), we've talked about reducing the skill trainnig and skill focus bonuses to +3 from +5. That would turn a 1st-level Jedi's +12 UTF into a +8. Another idea is to grant Jedi Force powers based on level (instead of taking a feat). Maybe grant them a force power each level, which would limit low-level Jedi powers while allowing high-level Jedi to have a large suite and free up those feats for lightsaber combat feats.

One thing I did do to encourage Jedi to use lightsabers instead of relying on Force powers was to up the lightsaber damage to 3d8 (at least that put it on par with a heavy blaster pistol).

I'm going to solve this in my next SWSE campaign by... bypassing it entirely. I have a "scoundrels" game in mind - kind of a mash-up between Star Wars and The Dirty Dozen.

Funny. Our next SE game is going to be "bounty hunters."

-Skeld

 

[Steel_Wind]

That's very, very workable - and I'd be okay adopting that, too. But there are cases where I want the skill to be higher than an attack roll - Deflection and Blocking being the two biggies.

Regardless, I think it's a good solution - and probably the best one, honestly. I like the fact that the attack roll and skill bonus are kept separate... Frankly, that's the only way to work it which makes sense, given the effect DCs in the force power listings.

Yeah I don't see the problem either, tbh. I suppose that a first level character can run around with +13 Force Slam - but that's not that big a deal. The damage inflicted by these attacks is rarely anough to be determinative of the battle on its own. Which does not minimze the advantages conferred by Force Slam, but knocking the foe prone also gives the for a +5 cover bonus from ranged attacks from ranged allies, too. So it's an attack which is a mixed blassing.

I was a little confused about the complaining about the withdrawal rules and how they somehow undo or undermine melee combat in SW:SE. I have not experienced any problem with that in our group's game. We have a party of 6, with 2 light sabre wielding jedis, 2 other mixed melee/ and ranged combatants and 2 ranged combatants only.

Combat has been exciting and dynamic with TONS of movement in ways that our 3.5 or Pathfinder combat never, ever is. So I'm somewhat confused about the nature of the complaints concerning the withdraw action.

If the complaint is that a combatant can move by withdrawing immediately back without provoking, stop the movement when out of melee range and immediately shoot at the Jedi without provoking an AOO all on the same turn - well - yes that's true. And it's just as true that the Jedi is unlikely to be hit when deflecting the attack -- and at fifth level can choose to redirecting the attack right back at the foe (assuming the jedi takes redirect, which they almost always do). And when the jedi's turn comes around, he'll move and attack again and we will continue that dance.

Only an idiot stands toe to toe to allow a Jedi armed with a humming plasma sword to potentially get off a full round attack on them so that's not a deficiency in the rules, AFAIAC. To the contrary: that's a good thing. In order for the Jedi to prevent a foe from withdrawing, they have to be flanked or otherwise boxed in, or knocked prone. How is this a problem? What I am missing here?