No Random treasure !?!?...

[Orius]

Yeah. I saw that part in there. Actually thinking about blacking it out with a sharpie. It's definitely one of the goofiest ideas and one idea that will NEVER happen in my game. None of my players would ever think of that (even if they read that part). Most of my players have been with me since the 1e days so it's not an issue.

If they've been around since 1e, then I think all of you probably know what you're doing at the game table. I wouldn't bother with wish lists much either (the players could give them to me if I ever DM 4e, that don't mean I will use them), but then I know more or less what I'm doing with treasure. I think it's more of a benefit to more novice DMs (as long as the DMG has decent guidelines there on treasure distribution). When I first started with 2e, I had no idea what the hell I was doing with magic. I'd keep rolling on the table, because everything seemed to powerful or just lameass.

 

[Stogoe]

Maybe they're sufficiently rare... except for their absurdly low-value in the PHB...

How much wealth do you think the average peasant possesses over his entire life? Me, I'm thinking maybe 100 gp, maybe. Over his entire life. Most people can't afford to buy a magic item, ever. Maybe they saw one or two on display over the years when a merchant passed through town, but to buy one? Never in a million years.

 

[renau1g]

How much wealth do you think the average peasant possesses over his entire life? Me, I'm thinking maybe 100 gp, maybe. Over his entire life. Most people can't afford to buy a magic item, ever. Maybe they saw one or two on display over the years when a merchant passed through town, but to buy one? Never in a million years.

To be honest a peasant couldn't afford a mundane weapon. 15gp for a sword is way too much for them. I'm talking about minor nobles, etc. I'm sure they could scrounge together the under 1k over a few years and afford one of these "rare" items.

 

[Spatula]

While I miss the random treasure tables, they don't make much sense with the reward & wealth guidelines presented in the 4e DMG. A group of five only gets 4 magic items per level, and each PC needs 3 "plus" items (weapon/implement, armor, amulet/cloak) in order to keep up with the monsters' stats... and those items have to keep getting upgraded as you level. Then throw in non-plus items (everything else) and there just isn't much room for a scheme that does not hand out loot in an extremely efficient manner. Also, there's a very poor return on transforming unneeded items into items that are useful to the group.

So, random tables would have required the discussion of a completely different reward structure.

 

[Asmor]

To be honest a peasant couldn't afford a mundane weapon. 15gp for a sword is way too much for them. I'm talking about minor nobles, etc. I'm sure they could scrounge together the under 1k over a few years and afford one of these "rare" items.

I thought I heard somewhere that in medieval Europe, a sword cost about a year's salary for your typical soldier/guard/etc. Could be wrong.

 

[nerdronomicon]

They already cut out the middle man by having the create magic item ritual be a vending machine, and identify magic item taking 5 minutes.

i feel like this is pretty much balanced out by the fact that anything you find can only be sold for 1/5th it's actual value. if you don't like it give them back the ability to sell items for half value, take away the ability to identify items for free and make identify a 1st level ritual that costs 100gp to cast.

the book is the dungeon masters GUIDE not the dungeon masters BIBLE. it's still your game. change it however you want.

 

[Victoly]

If merchants can establish said connections, why can't I?

Because while merchants were spending years building connections and travelling to secure their wares, you were training to be a figher or wizard or rogue or whatever and had to waste all of your time slaying monsters and saving the weak. Oh, the drudgery!

 

[renau1g]

I thought I heard somewhere that in medieval Europe, a sword cost about a year's salary for your typical soldier/guard/etc. Could be wrong.

I could see that. A guard is much different than a peasant... *tangent - sorry*

I'm not for random treasure generators, but the options as a previous poster pointed out is that the characters NEED certain items as the move forward in order to survive. I thought I remember reading before 4e came out that it would be more like Iron Heroes (which to be fair I've never actually played, just looked over), but something along the lines that the characters would be the main focus and magic items wouldn't be requisite, just beneficial. If a fighter was locked up in a prison and broke out with no gear, just whatever weapon he grabbed from the guard he should be nearly as effective as when he's fully equipped...

3.5e didn't have that at all, and I hoped that what I read was right, but it obviously isn't...

 

[Fanaelialae]

I could see that. A guard is much different than a peasant... *tangent - sorry*

I'm not for random treasure generators, but the options as a previous poster pointed out is that the characters NEED certain items as the move forward in order to survive. I thought I remember reading before 4e came out that it would be more like Iron Heroes (which to be fair I've never actually played, just looked over), but something along the lines that the characters would be the main focus and magic items wouldn't be requisite, just beneficial. If a fighter was locked up in a prison and broke out with no gear, just whatever weapon he grabbed from the guard he should be nearly as effective as when he's fully equipped...

3.5e didn't have that at all, and I hoped that what I read was right, but it obviously isn't...

It's pretty effortless to implement. Just shift the gear enhancement bonus to a bonus gained from leveling (an inherent enhancement bonus). Now the fighter who breaks out of prison and grabs a guard's sword is just about as good as with his Vorpal sword (though his Vorpal sword still grants noticable benefits).

Obviously that means that items only exist at levels where they're special abilities upgrade from the base item.

My guess as to why they didn't make this default is twofold. First, the sword +1 has been a staple of D&D since the early days.
Secondly, 4e specifically calls out treasure as a form of reward that works alongside experience. It's much easier to give out rewards every level over 30 levels if you can simply upgrade Bob's Vorpal Sword +5(which he absolutely loves) to a Vorpal Sword +6.

If you use this method you might want to tweak the reward system slightly. I like it though, and will probably use it after I finish my first 4e campaign.

ALTERNATE THOUGHT- Give your players the bonuses and effects from Monster Magic Threshold (DMG pg 174). This allows you to retain item enhancement bonuses without alteration and character capability drops only very slightly (typically -1) when they don't have access to their equipment.

 

[Jack Colby]

I kinda' miss the random treasure tables, but 4E is designed to be more of a pre-planned game than earlier editions were. I'm personally more in favor of the "wander around and let adventure find you" mode of play, not the "DM has your 'adventure' prepared" mode. But since 4E isn't designed for the former, I'll approach it with the mindset of the latter. There's no reason to be angry at the game for doing what it was designed for. If I want to play a game with random treasure and the playstyle that goes with it I will just play a game of Basic or AD&D.

Plus, you could always make your own random treasure tables. The parcel stuff is a guideline for balanced treasure and magic that scales properly with the game under the given design assumptions. As DM you have the power to change all such assumptions and run the game your way. Knock yourself out.