No Random treasure !?!?...

[wally]

Let me ask you a question.

If he came up with a way to research it, and found a wizard who knew of such a thing, and went on a long quest to a dank dungeon to find the components and the base shield.. would you have let him have his shield?

Because I don't think 4e is saying "Take wishlist, give candy." I think it's saying "Take wishlist, get ideas."

If the player had been willing to go that far, then probably yes. He didn't indicate that he should have to, and I get the feeling from some of the posts in this thread that he shouldn't have to.

I understand the point you are making, and some have made it. Give them an in game reason to search/quest for said item and then achieve the prize. I don't think that is a new idea, and I would bet that some of the 4e detractors would still agree that it is a plausible path to follow.

I think the problem is that the idea that seems to be presented here is that 4e tells you to give the items or something close that is 'usefull' in a treasure that they win sometime in their next battle(s). That isn't the same thing at all. It may be my view, but I don't think it comes close at all.

-wally

 

[Entropi]

I agree with ^^^^^^^.

Wishlist = player entitlement.

Having a player quest for an item he wants every now and then is great.

Having every player expect to be able to pick what magic items they are going to find is, IMO, ludicrous.

I must admit I LOL'ed when I read this part of the DMG.

As for a random magic item generator, here is teh one I am using. It will only get you so far - that is, it will get you to a specific treasure table. It is up to the DM to then pick or generate an item from that table appropriate for the party's level.

[B]Magic Item Type Table
1d100	Item Type	Subtable[/B]
1-15	Potion 		PHB
16-40	Weapon		PHG
41-55	Armor		PHB
56-75	Clothing	Clothing Subtable below
76-80	Jewelry		Jewelry Subtable below
81-88	Implement	Implement Subtable below
89- 91	Wondrous Item	PHB
92-100	Document	Document Subtable below

[B]Clothing Subtable
1d100	Clothing Type	Subtable[/B]
1-25	Arms		PHB
26-40	Feet		PHB
41-55	Hands		PHB
56-80	Head		PHB
81-100	Waist		PHB

[B]Jewelry Subtable
1d100	Jewelry Type	Subtable[/B]
01-65	Ring		PHB
66-100	Neck		PHB

[B]Implement Subtable
1d8	Implement Type	Subtable[/B]
1-2	Holy Symbol	PHB
3	Orb		PHB
4-5	Wand		PHB
6	Staff		PHB
7	Rod		PHB
8	Reroll		

[B]Document Subtable
1d100	Document Type	Subtable[/B]
01-65	Scroll		PHB
66-100	Book		PHB

 

[The Little Raven]

Having every player expect to be able to pick what magic items they are going to find is, IMO, ludicrous.

Good thing that's not what a wish list is.

A wishlist is just a list of things the player would like when the DM decides to generate treasure that (hopefully) is appropriate for the party in the game. There's no sense of entitlement in a player saying "Hey, if we get some magic items, it'd be nice if they were useful for us."

This whole "Making a wishlist means they get everything they want" nonsense is not present anywhere in the PHB or DMG, and is a wholesale fabrication by posters in this thread.

 

[CountPopeula]

If I ever play 4ed at the store, I will definitely ask for wish lists and then make sure none of those treasures ever make it into my games...

I would not play in a game with you as the DM. Ever.

This reminds me of a situation I once had at a retail job. I would occasionally work Tuesdays, which was the night my friends and I wanted to watch Buffy and go drinking afterwards. So my boss was always complaining about hating to work Sundays.

I told her I'd like to work more Sundays if I could have Tuesdays off. From then on, I worked every Tuesday and had every Sunday off. Which was nice for Football season, but just passive aggressive enough for me to quit not long after (in time for the Buffy finale, no less).

But asking the players what they want to make sure you don't give it to them? Sounds like DM power-tripping, to me.

 

[redcard]

But asking the players what they want to make sure you don't give it to them? Sounds like DM power-tripping, to me.

Don't you know? The job of the DM is to punish the players for every time they were called a nerd in school.

Why would you want your DM to be.. friendly? That's.. that's crazy.

 

[Spatula]

Because I don't think 4e is saying "Take wishlist, give candy." I think it's saying "Take wishlist, get ideas."

Well, we're talking about a handful of sentences in the DMG. To the extent that 4e says anything on the subject, it says, pick the items that players get from the lists they give you at the start of each level. Seeing as a "normal" adventure is going to cover 2-3 levels, there's really only so much prep you can do for item-specific quests, if the players are giving you wishlists every level, as the DMG proposes. You can't turn everything into a quest.

I really think that, if anything, the wishlist idea is there to make the DM's job easier: every item the players find must be something useful, and rather than spending time figuring out what the players need, the players simply tell the DM. "Here's some items that I would really like, of which I can expect to receive one this level (or none, since the party of five only gets four items per level)." In that sense I do think that it's saying, "take wishlist, give candy," but there's nothing wrong with that. You're giving the candy out anyway. Is it not better to ask those getting the candy what kinds they prefer?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Wish lists should be in character. The player should not tell the dm, "I want a holy avenger." The charcter should consult a sage or a library and discover where a holy avenger might lie, abandoned in some tomb of horrors, perhaps.

 

[Umadin]

Good riddance.

Putting an item that makes sence is same ammount of work, makes more sense. Here's a random magic table. Close eyes, open section of book, point. There, random.

 

[wally]

Having the idea of a wish list presented in the rules actually seems like it is setting a standard. It isn't making it a must, but as a suggestion, the minute you remove it, there are those that are going to argue and complain. From the posts here, it sounds like you may even have people complaining from outside your game.

I guess what I wonder is what is the reaction going to be when you invite a new player into your game and he shows up with a list already, 'here is the items I would like my player to get.'

While he isn't saying you have to give them, there is an implication that if you ignore the list, you are not catering to the players wishes.

Yes you can say that the player doesn't have to play with that group, or the DM doesn't have to abide by it, but I think the main issue is that this is a new idea, in that it is presented in the DMG as a solution. The rules are telling you that you should be running the game to please the players (all of them). I think previously it was implied that everyone should enjoy the game, and if you weren't there were issues to work out, or just go your separate ways. Now the rules are specifying ways the DM is supposed to act to keep his players happy, and it isn't by helping him craft more interesting stories, or more interesting characters, it is by feeding their 'I wanna" attitude.

Maybe that is a little extreme.

-wally

 

[wally]

Wish lists should be in character. The player should not tell the dm, "I want a holy avenger." The charcter should consult a sage or a library and discover where a holy avenger might lie, abandoned in some tomb of horrors, perhaps.

I think the problem here is that most of the 4e responses I have received is that you as a player are supposed to understand that you are separate from the character, and you are to make character decisions outside of the character's mind.

4e seems to push for that separation, and for immersive gamers like me it makes it harder to accept it as a playstyle.

-wally