"No save or die", but now "20 and TPK".

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Oh course then you have the issue with template placement, if you need to centre it on one guy. You place templates on intersections not in squares. So can you critcal everyone adjacent to the intersection? Also wouldn't you rather place the template to get as many as possible instead of a chance of a critcal on one? How much extra time is going to be wasted on placing templates if you have to make additional decision like that?

Good call on that. It would slow things down. Maybe just pick one guy to get critted? I'm just wary of expanding the power of area of effect attacks even more than they are now.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

If an AoE attack can crit everything caught, then I think this will be a problem. So far there is nothing confirming that is the case. The examples of criticaling with an AoE have not mentioned multiple targets, so it is possible that there will be a target opponent.

In addition to the potential TPK issue, if you can get multiple crits with an AoE attack, the complaining will change to: Have you played a melee combatant and been a little envious of the excitement of other players when they critical an entire group? Have you wished that you could do that with your sword?

 

[Bagpuss]

Maybe we should wait for May before we start house ruling, hopefully this is/will be fixed. I know it was a problem in SAGA, and this article seems to indicate they haven't learned the lesson, except for this...

Folks familiar with the new Star Wars Saga system will recognize this concept, but it’s evolved a bit to better suit D&D.

Maybe evolved means they have a solution, but the article talked like they weren't even aware of the problem. I feel it's better to shout about it now, than let it get to print without being fixed.

 

[Szatany]

It won't happen but possible solution could be to change critical hits from x2 damage to x1.5. Damage output per blow will be higher anyway since iterative attacks are gone, and this could go a good length to smooth the TPK possibility of a area spell.

 

[UltimaGabe]

I wouldn't be as worried about the fact they have removed save or die, more they have introduced "Dragon rolls and 20 its a TPK".

Could it be that fights with dragons are supposed to be... *gasp* ...dangerous?

 

[Cadfan]

Now who is assuming facts not in evidence...

I listed possibilities that would fix the problem. No assumptions were made. I concede that if things work the way you think they will, there will be a problem. I'm just making the point that we don't know if things will work that way or not.

It doesn't need to be an Area of Effect at all times, it only needs one area effect critical TPK to ruin the campaign.

I should have been more clear. The point I was trying to make was this: if a breath weapon can be a directed attack against one foe, or an area of effect attack against multiple foes, it doesn't automatically mean that critical hits will be possible in both cases.

They don't have to do huge amounts of damage, because when they critcal it will be doubled, they only need to do a reasonable amount. Or are 4e dragons breath weapons just going to be ineffectual coughs most of the time?

There's a lot of room between "so powerful that doubling them creates a TPK" and "ineffectual coughs." Were I a designer, I'd want area of effect attacks to have low damage, since the damage amongst all the players added up will still be rather high. So I'd set the dragon's area of effect breath attack rather low. Then I'd want specific, directed attacks to be higher, to make a dragon's breath weapon frightening. I don't know if that's what they're going to do, but I do think it makes the point that area of effect attacks needn't be assumed to be either so powerful that doubling them kills the party, or else ineffectual. There does exist a middle ground.

Oh, another middle ground is to make a dragon's breath weapon drastically reduced in damage, but let the dragon use it more frequently. If a breath weapon only does 10% of your hit points in damage, but its used continuously and in conjunction with other attacks, its still just as scary as a breath weapon that does 40% of your hit points in damage, but only gets used every few rounds and prevents the dragon from making other attacks.

Heck it's done two area of effect attacks and it hasn't even used a standard action.

If doubling the damage of a dragon's breath weapon makes a TPK likely, wouldn't using it twice also make a TPK likely? Its the same effect, and yet no TPK occurred in that article.

Oh course then you have the issue with template placement, if you need to centre it on one guy.

There's no problem if you don't require the named, primary target to be the center of the template. Or, maybe you do require it, and that just becomes a tactical decision for the dragon.

All I'm saying is, there are a lot of ways this problem could be avoided.

Here's what we know for certain.

1) Area of effects like breath weapons will be able to crit in some way.
2) Crits double damage and occur on a 20.
3) The designers have previously used this mechanic on area of effects in a different game.
4) That didn't work out.
5) The designers know it didn't work out, and issued errata to fix it.

And here are the assumptions we can make.

1) In spite of all this, the designers are going to do it again.
2) The designers have a way to allow criticals for area of effect attacks without breaking the game.

I think the latter is more likely.

 

[Pygon]

If AoE effects can crit everything with a single roll, I WILL be using multiple dice rolls, regardless of 4e's intent. Unless, as stated, there is a clause to keep it from being game breaking.

 

[Bagpuss]

Here's what we know for certain.

5) The designers know it didn't work out, and issued errata to fix it.

Are we sure the designers for 4e are the very same people that did SAGA and it's errata? Because if they aren't then point 5 is just an assumption too.

The designers of SAGA introduced old errors from the D&D PHB that had been errated, because they weren't aware of the errata.

Of course if they do have a solution that allows AoE criticals and isn't game breaking it might be nice if they shared it with the Star Wars SAGA players, who seemed to do a good job of getting other bugs out of the system.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

This is assuming that damage for 4e spells is calculated the same way as 3e. Didn't Fireball get confirmed that it isn't Xd6 anymore? If the damage on spells isn't nearly as great maybe the crits won't be as deadly.

 

[BryonD]

My guess:

The dragon targets one character and attacks that character as normal with the chance of a crit. All others within the radius of the breath are attacked by the same roll, but with a -5 penalty and no threat of a crit.