No Second Edition Love?

[Greg K]

Ultimately, I think 2e's main problem was that it was, well, too quintessentially D&D. People like to talk all about how they want meat and potatos fantasy, but they're actually talking about a form of fantasy gaming and fiction that comes *after* D&D. AD&D1e was a gonzo mashup ot pulp sword and sorcery with enough Tolkien for mass appeal. 3e is the post internet revolution dungeonpunk system that borrows from card game and computer game mechanics.

It's possible. However, in my experience, it was the mechanics that drove people away- my self included. The people that I knew were looking for more streamlined systems that gave more control over character development. Although some of the D&Disms like Vancian Magic were one of the complaints, but that is also a mechanical issue as well.

 

[eyebeams]

It's possible. However, in my experience, it was the mechanics that drove people away- my self included. The people that I knew were looking for more streamlined systems that gave more control over character development. Although some of the D&Disms like Vancian Magic were one of the complaints, but that is also a mechanical issue as well.

In what way is 2e less streamlined than 1e? 1e's complete combat system was the most complex ever devised for any edition of D&D. Ironically, people seem to prefer 1e combat because it was so unworkable people ignored the majority of the rules. The only substantial new layer of complexity in 2e was with proficiencies.

 

[Greg K]

In what way is 2e less streamlined than 1e? 1e's complete combat system was the most complex ever devised for any edition of D&D. Ironically, people seem to prefer 1e combat because it was so unworkable people ignored the majority of the rules. The only substantial new layer of complexity in 2e was with proficiencies.

I wasn't making a distinction between 1e and 2e. I am saying why the people I know left AD&D in general whether prior to 2e or sometime between its release and the release of 3e.

 

[Ranger REG]

I agree as far as plate mail & shield is concerned, but where did the 2-weapon fighting come from? Since 2e got rid of the barbarian, why not simply give rangers the same Dex bonuses as barbarians (as long as they're wearing light armor), and nix the 2-weapon nonsense? That's why I thought the 2e ranger was retconned to fit with Driz'zt (in 1e drow could fight with 2 weapons, in 2e, not).

Yeah, the two-weapon fighting is modeled after 1e drow trait, which is then spotlighted by Drizz't mastery over his twin scimitars. Ironic that Salvatore's novel don't model more drow (like Zaknafein) after the 1e drow trait. Then again, the Dark Elf Trilogy were written during the 2e era, which also eliminated the ranger's ability to acquire weapon specialization tree with bows.

 

[Ranger REG]

The only substantial new layer of complexity in 2e was with proficiencies.

AFAIK, they were ported over from 1e.

 

[Henry]

I wasn't making a distinction between 1e and 2e. I am saying why the people I know left AD&D in general whether prior to 2e or sometime between its release and the release of 3e.

Correct, that I know of; the people I've talked to who went to other game systems after AD&D was because they were already getting fed up with the mechanics of AD&D, and the 2nd edition was either not enough, or the "nail in the coffin." We never left AD&D, but we heavily modified the mechanics to every single game our groups ever played, each person putting their own spin on it.

Now, when we play 3E, we mainly play exactly like the rules, but the DM just accepts or denies different rules sources/classes/feats/spells/etc., rather than sitting down and hammering out an amalgam of the wishes of player and DM.

 

[Choranzanus]

Ultimately, I think 2e's main problem was that it was, well, too quintessentially D&D. People like to talk all about how they want meat and potatos fantasy, but they're actually talking about a form of fantasy gaming and fiction that comes *after* D&D. AD&D1e was a gonzo mashup ot pulp sword and sorcery with enough Tolkien for mass appeal. 3e is the post internet revolution dungeonpunk system that borrows from card game and computer game mechanics.

2e? 2e was the system that actually strove to be a standardized version of D&D, based on the fantasy fiction that came out of D&D and the fundamentals of what was considered D&D's particular identity as a system. It ultimately didn't push anything forward, but it fulfilled expectations.

In fact, I think that if 3e's rules had come out in '95 before net-based promotion and the explosion of the fantasy genre into computer games it would have been the most reviled edition of the game ever.

I agree. I love 2e style and art, but I totally hate the game mechanics. I could not play it even if you pay me. I have never played with 1ed, but things people keep mentioning they missed in 2ed, I don't miss. And don't get me even started about dungeonpunk.

People keep mentioning Dragonlance, but what about Forgotten realms (at least the original ones), have it become really forgotten?

 

[Prince of Happiness]

People keep mentioning Dragonlance, but what about Forgotten realms (at least the original ones), have it become really forgotten?

My biggest regret from my 2E FR campaigns was that I did not use the available NPCs more often. I'm not talking about the big names, I'm talking about guys like "Flame" and that one Red Wizard lady who was around 5th, 6th level. Those guys.

 

[jezter6]

man, all the hat for 2e.

I, for one, loved it. I started at AD&D, and 2e was just the greatest game ever played in my humblest of opinions. We had ONE house rule, and one house rule only...and that was a modified weapon specialization for all classes.

Then again, that was back in the days before grids and minis. We just used imagination, and if there was a questionable distance (ie: How far is the goblin from me now? Can I get him at short range with my crossbow?) it was basically GM fiat. PCs moved around, enemies moved around, but it was all in general terms (in melee with the cleric - which meant if you didn't specifically say you were next to the cleric, you weren't really in melee range of the bad guy either, over behind the table, across the green pond of goo).

I, like everyone, upgraded to 3.xE and have regretted it ever since. My 3.0 books lie in a garage somewhere (quite near my 2e books - but that's lack of players). If I had my gaming setup, 2e would be right next to my GM chair, just so I could look at how cool it was and bring up great memories of long lost warriors.

The only thing d20 gave me above 2e was the OGL and the ability to see variant games, which finally led me to trying another system for the first time ever.

Oh, and if you want to send your old 2e stuff to Maryland...let me know. I'd GLADLY accept mailings from all over if it means free 2e stuff.

 

[dcas]

AFAIK, they were ported over from 1e.

Yes, they appeared in Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, Wilderness Survival Guide, Dragonlance Adventures, and Oriental Adventures at the very least. And the main person responsible for Oriental Adventures (David "Zeb" Cook) then went on to be the main person responsible for AD&D 2e.

As an aside, it would be hard to imagine two more different contemporaneous rulebooks than Oriental Adventures and Unearthed Arcana.