tx7321 said:
*snip*
REM: "In 1e (by your discussion) the PC rolls a 1d20 and adds his +2 bonus. He gives a total. The DM now determines (by chart) what that answer equates to (17 for a ftr2 is AC 2) and cross-references that against the orcs AC (2 >5, so a hit). The DM now is handling the bulk of the work.
-Ahhhhhhhh I'm lost. All the DM does is look on the fighter table to see what a 2nd level fighter needs to hit AC 7 (or whatever the AC of the monster is). The DM does the same for the monster. What the heck are you talking about? Looking at tables is brainless work, a 6 year old can do that part.
There is no work thats what the tables are for. If you consider moving your head work...then I guess its work.
The PC has no idea if he missed the Orc due to poor ability or good AC. However, the DM has to constantly be doing that math for all players all the time.
-What math. 1E doesn't have math it has tables. Thats why it has tables, so you don't have to do math.
Quick! A fireball explodes on a group of PCs. A 5th level fighter, a 3rd/3rd level fighter/mage, a 6th level thief, and a 4th level cleric all have to save vs. spell. What do they have to roll higher than to succeed? Can you do it without looking? "
Thats why I look at the table. I can figure that out in about 10 seconds. The F/M you just use the best save table (so M for magic).
But, you are missing the point. The fact is, the DM has to do ALL the work. That's fantastic if the DM is fast and on the ball. What if your DM a bit slow? You also MUST now have the DMG open to the appropriate pages all the time. I forget if saving throws and attack matrixes are on the same page, but, it's still constant work for the DM. That or he is referencing the DM's screen all the time. Either way, the work is entirely on the DM's head.
And it slows the game down.
A misapprehension that I see all the time is that the rules, starting in 2e and continuing in 3e have taken power away from the DM and given it to the players. That's only half true. Yes, codified rules take away power from the DM. However, they don't give it to the players, they keep that power tied within the rules themselves.
Take the jump example we have been using. In 1e, all the power lies in the hands of the DM since there are no real mechanics for determining success. 2e changes that with the jump NWP. Now, it didn't really go far enough since it doesn't tell you if a non-proficient person can jump, but, a player with a proficiency in Jump can determine how far he jumps without any input from the DM.
So, all the power is now in the hands of the player right? Wrong.
The player has no power still. He doesn't determine his chances of success, the rules tell him what the chances are. He still has absolutely no control over the physics of the setting. Instead of the DM telling him to make a Petrification save, the rules are telling him to make a NWP check. From the players point of view, the result is the same - someone else is telling him what his chances are.
The only real difference is in standardization. 3e takes this several steps further with the idea of using skills untrained. Now I can determine how far my horse can jump at full gallop without any ad hoc rulings from the DM. But, again, its still power being held out of the hands of the players. The rules tell me how far my horse can jump. As a player, I have no control. As a DM, I have some control since I can whack in situational mods.
2e's greatest strength lies in the fact that it got the ball rolling in standardizing play. It didn't go far enough, but, that is perhaps more a sign of the times than anything. We had to go through 2e to get to 3e.
