Non-cleric and non-paladin priests?

Henry said:
Although I might be sneaky enough to grant the PC a divine boon in an emergency (lay on hands, divine grace, cure disease, etc.) and also give the player bonus XP if he decides to genuinely convert with his next level... :)

Exactly:D

See BVB this is how I do it imc. If a Bard acted in the name of his god according to Truth Justice and Righteous Fury then the god-DM might give a bit of divine grace.

The character is now (almost) a paladin because of the favour of their god not by some selfimposed claim

Oh and Lela I'd love to see your PrC Paladin
 
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Tonguez said:


See BVB this is how I do it imc. If a Bard acted in the name of his god according to Truth Justice and Righteous Fury then the god-DM might give a bit of divine grace.

The character is now (almost) a paladin because of the favour of their god not by some selfimposed claim

Ah! See, there's the rub: Ownership of character concept.

Prior to the beginning of a campaign, before the character ever steps out onto the stage, the player has created a background story. An origin of where he comes from and why he is the way he is. If the player wants to imagine that his character is motivated by the death of his father or the love of his gawd, then so be it. He doesn't have to ask the DM's permission. He is what he is by the very nature of "self-imposed claim" of identity.

But as soon as the game begins he has to start sharing his character with some stranger hiding behind a DM's screen. Should he fit into the game world created by the DM? Sure, that's a given. But does he have to clear every little quirk and belief held by his character? I don't think so.

By your comments above, you're suggesting the DM is a "god" who can see into the hearts of these imaginary characters as well as the players themselves. That holds about as much validity as someone telling *you* that you're not what you know you are deep down in your heart. This holds triply true for matters of religion and a relationship with a higher power.

There's the game mechanics and there's game effect ... and then there's internal fantasy and perspective. Players must agree on game mechanics to make the system work, and the DM can elaborate on the effects of each person's actions to set the scene. But there's no way you can keep a character from calling himself a "paladin" if that's what he wants to call himself.

This discussion reminds me of similar positions held in the argument of "alignment," wherein the player says his character is doing something with "good" intentions but the DM declares that it's not good at all.
 


BVB said:


There's the game mechanics and there's game effect ... and then there's internal fantasy and perspective. Players must agree on game mechanics to make the system work, and the DM can elaborate on the effects of each person's actions to set the scene. But there's no way you can keep a character from calling himself a "paladin" if that's what he wants to call himself.


No one said he couldn't call himself a Paladin. But what about the effects of doing so?
 

I apologise in advance for entering this thread and then not answering the Paladin question. But the good discussion earlier in the thread about the anture of church hierarchies and class was useful.

My own Shattered World setting doesn't make use of gods and so no clerics either. The Theurges, who fill in for the Cleric and Druid classes, nevertheless play like Clerics of No God, and their are plenty of organisations that represent a wide variety of philosophies about how to live life and what to do, so many of the same considerations apply as a standard church structure. Perhaps it is divorcing the matter of theurgely power from divine mandate, but because of it, I have never during my 3e play had any problems with the idea of having organisational power and 'priestly' power divorced. Various groups have been led locally and at higher levels by Experts and Aristocrats, ambitious people who have developed the right sort of abilities to be selected for such posts, or can manipulate their way into such positions. After all, time spent developing 'magical' power is time spent away from leading people and making connections, assuming that that power requires at least some devotion from the worshipper, and isn't just a mantle dropped onto him or her.

Nevertheless, the older versions of the game still hang heavy on our play, and it certainly appeared to be D&D tradition in the past that the church hierarchy mimicked exactly the level hierarchy - Bishop Goodbody was always higher level than Pastor Niceman who was higher level than Acolyte Smallperson. That was part of a general notion that Level stood in for Power in all its aspects - so the local Baron was a higher level fighter than his guards, and the Mage Guild Master was a higher level Mage than the rank-and-file. We (that is gamers) long ago realised that this produced some very strange and stilted worlds. I like to think that we've moved beyond that now, and this restructuring applies as much to church hierarchies as any other grouping or organisation. But its lure is very powerful, and it's easy to slip back into that way of thinking (oops - that magical school is led by the highest level Wizard - why?). Still, of we plan a little as DMs we can avoid it.

As a little footnote, I will also remind people that this is 3e, where multiclassing is much easier to use. When we say 'Cleric' or 'Expert' or 'Aristocrat', we are really saying a person whose outlook is most coloured by having levels in that class. But it need never be the only class, nor even necessarily the highest class. I try to remember to put plenty of multiclasses into organisations - there's nothing wrong with Cleric/Experts and Cleric/Aristocrats to represent a division of effort and time, and they are all still priests.

Anyways, now I am rambling. I guess I am really saying that yes, we probably ought to be more flexible in how we structure organised religion, and in the names we call things. Unless we want them to be so, game mechanics are tools to represent game world reality. They are not the reality itself.
 

IIRC, in Sepulcrave II's campaign over in the Story Hour, most of the rank-and-file priests of Oronthon (the main deity) are experts, with most of the high priests as multiclassed Expert/Contemplatives (remember, the only pre-req for Contemplative is 13 ranks of Knowledge (religion)). Interesting approach that keep the low men on the totem pole spell-free, but allows higher-ups to exhibit miracles.
 

Yeah, I have been inspired by Sepulchrave II's story hour to start using "Expert" Priests rather than Clerics to fill out the ranks of the majorty of those who can be found in a temple.

One side effect of this is that it forces the players to rely more on their characters resources rather than asking for help from the local Cleric, trying to coerce them into casting "buffing spells" on them before they go off to fight evil and save the town., etc.

There are still a few true Clerics around but they are more Temlper types or higher ranking individuals. No "acolytes" able to cast 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells. That would be a Preist's job.


Although the priest would still have the skills to strap on armor and pick up a weapon and go to war and crush some heads...
I saw a Priest class somewhere around here a while ago that focused more on the spell casting and less on the fighting. This is a nice option. I feel the Adepts spell choices are too diverse to fill this role..BYMMV
 

paulewaug said:

I saw a Priest class somewhere around here a while ago that focused more on the spell casting and less on the fighting. This is a nice option. I feel the Adepts spell choices are too diverse to fill this role..BYMMV

I remember that one. I think it was d4 HD and you didn't have to prepare spells? I've got it in .PDF if you want it. E-mail Me for a copy.
 
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