Like most posters here, I populate churches in my worlds with clerics and non-clerics alike. The only time this is a problem is when I use published materials, many of which seem to think that even the guy cutting the hedges outside the temple must have at least one level of cleric. As some Ars Magica book points out, in the medieval European Catholic church, the ones wielding power were not the best theologans, but the experts the canon law. The historic church is not the best example for D&D, as it was more powerful that one one D&D religion, and didn't have some members with magical powers. IMHO, a D&D religion would prefer to have Experts running the temples and such, as Clerics would be to valuble as healers, field agents etc. Besides, this gives us DMs an excuse for withholding goodies from players. "Well if it was up to me I would heal you guys for free, but the head of my order in this region has let it be known that free healing is only for the truly needy, and I know you adventurers usually have lots of wealth."
-
NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
Non-Clerics as a part of Church Hierarchy?
- Thread starter Melkor Lord Of ALL!
- Start date
Chimera
First Post
I pretty much agree with everyone else here on this subject, and not just for Priests/Temples/Religious Organizations.
The IT Manager is not the best Programmer, Analyst or Administrator. S/he is usually (but not always) just the best Organizer/Manager/Butt Kisser. (I'm a Programmer, hence the example)
So therefore the Hierarchy of any organization is not necessarily made up of the highest level practitioner of their particular craft. It's made up of those who seek those positions of power, for whatever reason.
IMC, "Priest" is 3rd level and above. You need to be able to Consecrate in order to qualify. Below that are simply "Initiates". Achieving the ability to Raise the Dead (at 9th level) may make you a more respected Priest, but it does not automatically make you a Bishop/High Priest/whatever. That takes hard work and lots of politicking, and is achievable even by a 3rd level Cleric if they work hard enough, long enough, and cultivate the right relationships.
The IT Manager is not the best Programmer, Analyst or Administrator. S/he is usually (but not always) just the best Organizer/Manager/Butt Kisser. (I'm a Programmer, hence the example)
So therefore the Hierarchy of any organization is not necessarily made up of the highest level practitioner of their particular craft. It's made up of those who seek those positions of power, for whatever reason.
IMC, "Priest" is 3rd level and above. You need to be able to Consecrate in order to qualify. Below that are simply "Initiates". Achieving the ability to Raise the Dead (at 9th level) may make you a more respected Priest, but it does not automatically make you a Bishop/High Priest/whatever. That takes hard work and lots of politicking, and is achievable even by a 3rd level Cleric if they work hard enough, long enough, and cultivate the right relationships.
I think it is really unfortunate that the 3E DDG did not cover the most burning and relevant issues about religion in D&D. Again, as an ex-Runequest player, I must tout my former game system which was much more interested in how characters' lives were affected by organized religion than which god had the most hit points.
My view is this:
(a) in order to officiate at a religious service, you should have at least one level of divine spell-casting. Thus all druids and clerics and mid-high level Paladins and Rangers should be able to carry out the liturgical functions of the church.
(b) generally, most churches do not give significant authority to people who cannot officiate to some degree (just as armies give minimal authority to people who cannot fight to some degree).
(c) naturally, every church will have accountants, criers and other individuals who have no spell-casting ability. But these individuals should have limited authority. Thus, each church's bookkeepers and administrators need not have divine caster levels but in all likelihood, the person heading their part of temple bureaucracy would.
My view is this:
(a) in order to officiate at a religious service, you should have at least one level of divine spell-casting. Thus all druids and clerics and mid-high level Paladins and Rangers should be able to carry out the liturgical functions of the church.
(b) generally, most churches do not give significant authority to people who cannot officiate to some degree (just as armies give minimal authority to people who cannot fight to some degree).
(c) naturally, every church will have accountants, criers and other individuals who have no spell-casting ability. But these individuals should have limited authority. Thus, each church's bookkeepers and administrators need not have divine caster levels but in all likelihood, the person heading their part of temple bureaucracy would.
Jack Daniel
Legend
In the New Testament, Jesus, the apostles, and a few others were the big miracle-workers; regular ministers didn't have the power to lay on hands and heal cripples, and only Christ, Peter, and I think one or two other apostles ever actually raised the dead.
In my campaign, clerics, paladins, and rangers are those rare individuals who have been chosen by God to drive back the darkness of goblins, demons, undead, etc. The bulk of nonadventuring clergymen are warriors and experts. Adepts represent faith-healers chosen by God who are specifially not clergy. A cleric or a paladin has basically recieved the same training in a church knighthood as a warrior; the difference is that ability to wokr miracles. Largely, hierarchy has nothing to do with it. The only case where this isn't true is the leader of the Church in my wolrd, a title known as "Apostle" rather than pope or patriarch because the requirement is the ability to raise the dead (effectively, 9 levels of cleric). That, to the faithful of my game world, pretty much says "yeah, this guy's been okayed by the Almighty."
Of course, in a typical polytheistic D&D world, it could be a different matter entirely. The assumption in tradition D&D is that anyone who is in the clergy is a cleric. Divine magic is very common, in some worlds (the Forgotten Realms) more common than arcane magic. So, it could go either way. I prefer to keep the dvine mysteries, well, mysterious.
In my campaign, clerics, paladins, and rangers are those rare individuals who have been chosen by God to drive back the darkness of goblins, demons, undead, etc. The bulk of nonadventuring clergymen are warriors and experts. Adepts represent faith-healers chosen by God who are specifially not clergy. A cleric or a paladin has basically recieved the same training in a church knighthood as a warrior; the difference is that ability to wokr miracles. Largely, hierarchy has nothing to do with it. The only case where this isn't true is the leader of the Church in my wolrd, a title known as "Apostle" rather than pope or patriarch because the requirement is the ability to raise the dead (effectively, 9 levels of cleric). That, to the faithful of my game world, pretty much says "yeah, this guy's been okayed by the Almighty."
Of course, in a typical polytheistic D&D world, it could be a different matter entirely. The assumption in tradition D&D is that anyone who is in the clergy is a cleric. Divine magic is very common, in some worlds (the Forgotten Realms) more common than arcane magic. So, it could go either way. I prefer to keep the dvine mysteries, well, mysterious.
BiggusGeekus
That's Latin for "cool"
Hmmmmm.
Feat: High Preist
You have advanced sufficiently far in the heirarchy so that you now have responsibility within that structure.
Pre-requisites: Leadership, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, able to cast 1st level divine spells
Bonuses: You gain a +4 bonus to all "social skills" when dealing with those in your heirarchy. You gain an income of (level*100)gp per month. You gain a +1 to your leadership score.
Special: The character may only adventure 1 week a month. Magic item creation time does not count toward this.
Whatcha think? You'd have to have one level of cleric, druid, or adept or be a high level ranger or paladin. Everything else would be open.
Feat: High Preist
You have advanced sufficiently far in the heirarchy so that you now have responsibility within that structure.
Pre-requisites: Leadership, Knowledge (religion) 10 ranks, able to cast 1st level divine spells
Bonuses: You gain a +4 bonus to all "social skills" when dealing with those in your heirarchy. You gain an income of (level*100)gp per month. You gain a +1 to your leadership score.
Special: The character may only adventure 1 week a month. Magic item creation time does not count toward this.
Whatcha think? You'd have to have one level of cleric, druid, or adept or be a high level ranger or paladin. Everything else would be open.
Wicht
Hero
BiggusGeekus said:
I think I still like the system in the KPG better. They give 10 general ranks and the requirements to be promoted for each, describing as well both the responsibilities and the bonuses that come with church office. Each church of course has their own titles, not every religion is going to use priest, high preist bishop.
Advancing generally requires skill points in different areas, an expenditure of experience and possibly, depending ont he church, some RPing requirement.
Great Umbrage
First Post
This depends on if yours is a Christian-type faith or a polytheistic one.
Certainly the priests and oracles of the Greek gods were said to have divine powers or to be initiated in the mysteries, so non-clerics among them would be rare.
On the other hand, the nature of the Christian church hierarchies were far more political--I would think that in a local setting, perhaps there were claims of those who could perform miracles, but among the higher echelons of the priesthood, there would be less of a need to impress the country bumpkin than there was to maneuver politically in order to advance one's power in the government.
A good example that springs to mind, incidentally, is Krynn during the end of the Age of Might, under the rule of the Kingpriest. So many of the clerics of that age were corrupt and yet still retained a high position. Most of them had no true clerical powers. The true clerics were generally the most humble among them.
Certainly the priests and oracles of the Greek gods were said to have divine powers or to be initiated in the mysteries, so non-clerics among them would be rare.
On the other hand, the nature of the Christian church hierarchies were far more political--I would think that in a local setting, perhaps there were claims of those who could perform miracles, but among the higher echelons of the priesthood, there would be less of a need to impress the country bumpkin than there was to maneuver politically in order to advance one's power in the government.
A good example that springs to mind, incidentally, is Krynn during the end of the Age of Might, under the rule of the Kingpriest. So many of the clerics of that age were corrupt and yet still retained a high position. Most of them had no true clerical powers. The true clerics were generally the most humble among them.
Similar Threads
