Non-Core Class Survivor: Round 6

[Drowbane]

Archivist (Heroes of Horror): Cool class.
Artificer (Eberron Campaign Setting): Cool class
Beguiler (Player's Handbook II: meh
Binder (Tome of Magic): Cool class
Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror): PoS
Duskblade (Player's Handbook II): meh
Favored Soul (Complete Divine): PoS to the 10th power.
Knight (Player's Handbook II): meh, ooh look at me... I can grab AGGRO!
Lurk (Complete Psionics): PoS
Ninja (Complete Adventurer): Cool class, looked down upon for its racial roots.
Psion (Expanded Psionics Handbook): Should replace Sorc in the next PHB.
Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook): PoS, needs to go!
Scout (Complete Adventurer): wtf is up with dancing around like an idiot and getting bonus dmg for it?
Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic): Quite possibly the second coolest class left.
Soulknife (Expanded Psionics Handbook): Nice concept, weak in play.
Spirit Shaman (Complete Divine): So its a crappy Druid?
Warlock (Complete Arcane): Best of the non-PHB base classes.
Warmage (Complete Arcane): Awesome class as long as you don't view it as a Mage, but rather as a low HP warrior who uses the most "broken" weapon in the game.

 

[Rystil Arden]

If I (for some unlikely reason) had to use only 3 Non-PHB classes, it would be Warlock, Psion (or Wilder - most underrated psionic class ), and Archivist. I'm not all that well informed on the PHB II classes.

The Beguiler is very nice, and quite cool. Awesome awesome class for the people who want to be a social type Enchanter character and don't care about losing blast spells to get more beguiling goodness. The Knight is well-balanced but has abilities that should not honestly be (Ex) because of semi-mind-control. The Duskblade is a solid Fighter/Mage class, but the flavour isn't really inspiring. The Dragon Shaman is a much better-balanced aura class than the Marshal, but its flavour is bizarre and not really applicable as a base class in most campaigns.

 

[Drowbane]

The Beguiler is very nice, and quite cool. Awesome awesome class for the people who want to be a social type Enchanter character and don't care about losing blast spells to get more beguiling goodness. The Knight is well-balanced but has abilities that should not honestly be (Ex) because of semi-mind-control. The Duskblade is a solid Fighter/Mage class, but the flavour isn't really inspiring. The Dragon Shaman is a much better-balanced aura class than the Marshal, but its flavour is bizarre and not really applicable as a base class in most campaigns.

So the Beguiler does what the Bard wishes it did?

 

[Rystil Arden]

So the Beguiler does what the Bard wishes it did?

Yes. Yes it does. And I couldn't be happier--I've loved the Bard concept and hated the mechanical follow-through for a long time.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

The Beguiler is very nice, and quite cool. Awesome awesome class for the people who want to be a social type Enchanter character and don't care about losing blast spells to get more beguiling goodness. The Knight is well-balanced but has abilities that should not honestly be (Ex) because of semi-mind-control. The Duskblade is a solid Fighter/Mage class, but the flavour isn't really inspiring. The Dragon Shaman is a much better-balanced aura class than the Marshal, but its flavour is bizarre and not really applicable as a base class in most campaigns.

God love ya, RA ... but I gotta disagree with a few of your points here.

The beguiler is a cool class that is well balanced, although I could have stood for the flavor text to be a bit less "evil oriented." One of it's main weaknesses is that some of its powers are assuming melee fighting range but the beguiler itself is a poor BAB character. Granted that a beguiler played right shouldn't need to consult their BAB very often .. but it does open up the beguiler to a weakness. Overall, though, I agree with RA in the end that it is a cool class.

The Duskblade's flavor is the most inspiring in the book IMHO. (I think this is why they have so many classes because they can't all appeal to everyone.) I love this class and if it weren't for the cleric and psion it'd be my favorite class hands down. Its spell selection is quite limited in both application and selection, but the fact that it gets more spells per level than any other caster and is a full progression BAB easily compensates for a short spell list.

The dragon shaman is an awesome class, but there is very lttle difference between a dragon shaman someone else creates and the one I create. A dragon shaman is largely centered around auras, but every dragon shaman knows every aura by level 9. If they (and the Favored SOul) didn't get wings in the late levels it would be a better RP class. I agree with RA in that the DM will need to do some work to include dragon shamans in their world unless they have a pre-build niche of dragon followers in their world.

The knight is a cool class, but in my opinion this is the one whose flavor was unispiring. I think of them as filling the same role as a paladin except that while a paladin comes out of divine circles the knight comes out of honor circles. The mechanics between the two classes are nothing alike, but their gameplay is fairly related.

 

[Rystil Arden]

God love ya, RA ... but I gotta disagree with a few of your points here.

Looks like you really only disagree with me on the flavour on the Duskblade To me it seemed just like the flavour read 'We have this because we are elves and we study hard' and then in the sections at the end they tell you the obvious 'Duskblades like weapons and magic both. They train in both too' (look at Daily Life, for instance). And I'm not against cool stuff for elves (I'm also not one of the people who thinks d20 has too much 'elves/drow are l33t' flavour), I just didn't like the presentation. That said, it was built so well that I could easily come up with flavour I prefer that would fit with it just fine.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Looks like you really only disagree with me on the flavour on the Duskblade

Well, I didn't say I totally disagree with RA. Because .. I don't. And if I did .. I just know Rhaka would find a dead mouse when she goes back as punishment.

To me it seemed just like the flavour read 'We have this because we are elves and we study hard'

[humor] Oh ... there was stuff about elves in the flavor text? I have an automatic "elf" alert that ensures that any class description with reference to elf stuff doesn't make it past the short term memory phase and rather is replaced with something that is less 'elf-centric.'[/humor]

I don't have a problem with elves either, but in my homebrew world elves have no more of a market on magic than humans do. I find that eliminating that one aspect of elfdom goes a long way in also removing the elf-snobbery that often exists with elves. But, I digress.

More voting, people! Down with the LURK!

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well, I didn't say I totally disagree with RA. Because .. I don't. And if I did .. I just know Rhaka would find a dead mouse when she goes back as punishment.

Awww, I'm not that mean

[humor] Oh ... there was stuff about elves in the flavor text? I have an automatic "elf" alert that ensures that any class description with reference to elf stuff doesn't make it past the short term memory phase and rather is replaced with something that is less 'elf-centric.'[/humor]

I don't have a problem with elves either, but in my homebrew world elves have no more of a market on magic than humans do. I find that eliminating that one aspect of elfdom goes a long way in also removing the elf-snobbery that often exists with elves. But, I digress.

This actually confuses me greatly. You said you liked the flavour and that it is the most inspiring in the book and then you said you ignored it? Oh wait, actually maybe that does make sense, now that I think of it

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I have an automatic "elf" alert that ensures that any class description with reference to elf stuff doesn't make it past the short term memory phase and rather is replaced with something that is less 'elf-centric.'

I highlighted the important stuff for you. My brain automatically substitues better flavor text and I'm none-the-wiser!

No, seriously. If I were to highlight what I found particularily inspiring it would be: [My thoughts in Italics]

Combining arcane magic with melee prowess, you're prepared in any situation. Enemies who underestimate you never get a second chance ...

The most powerful Duskblades can deul a fighter to a standstill and match a wizard spell for spell - at least for a while. [I disagree with this, I think the duskblade doesn't have the spell selection to match a wizard, but its BAB might kill the wizard fast enough to make it a moot point]

But the hybrid class really comes into its own when you embrace your hybrid nature. [I just love the feel of that. In D&D 3.5 we are almost trained to think multiclassing (not counting PrCs) leads to a less effective character. Hybridization through means other than PrCs is often not wise. Yet this class thrives on hybridization more than anything else!]

A Duskblade can take the fighter's place in the front ranks of a party or ensorcel his foes from a distance like a wizard. [I think they overstate the spellcasting ability just a bit, but it still sounds like an awesome hybridization.] ... You can change roles on a round by round basis. [That flexibility simply rocks.]

You are the object of envy to sorcerors and of admiration to bards, who sometimes try to emulate your anilities (often with disasterous affects). [Tell me that doesn't make you want to try that out! What an awesome RP idea right there - Duskblade with either a bard or a sorcerer gained under the leadership feat.]

Among members of the two classes whose portfolios you draw from, fighters and wizards, some view you with disdain and others are fascinated by your unique meld of melee combat and arcane spellcasting. [Again, the assertion of hybridization as a good thing is not only anti-3.5 but also leading directly into RP aspects. Perhaps the Duskblade rises to power in the midst of a cadre of fighters like Paul Attreides among the Fremen. Perhaps the Duskblade is shunned out of the ranks of the city guard on account of his reliance upon magic and not mere melee prowess. RP ops abound!]

You might feel like you have too many options, too many things you can do in a single round. [Woo-hoo! Any class you can say that about makes me want to feel that feeling.]

The monster that engages you in melee, hoping to get an Attack of Opportunity that spoils your next spell, is in for a big surprise - a surprise of three feet of razor sharp steel. [Okay, this quote also rocks even though I know that most swords were not sharp, they were bludgeoners. Sharp ones were really daggers and the like.]

You are most effective when you single out and focus upon defeating a single opponent. [This is begging for that macho one-on-one fight that we all secretly long for, no?]

Okay, that's probably enough. I'm not putting up this list to start an argument, merely to simply demonstrate what I find so inspiring about the Duskblade. That - and to illustrate that I do truly have an 'elf-alert' that erases from my brain any mention of elf-based mechanics!

EDIT: As an aside an proof of how much I like the class, I am currently writing a Story Hour that can be found in my sig. One of the main characters started out to be a fighter before the PHB II was put out. He quickly morphed into a Duskblade. Yet, since he started a fighter much of the first parts were written without him able to cast spells. In the story .... SPOILER TEXT FOLLOWS:

Spoiler

The character Ischarus is about to find out that he's had hidden arcane talents for some time. And these arcane talents are not because of some poorly written 'elven heritage' part of the description of the PHBII. It is because he is Drakontos. [In my homebrew, Drakontos are the equivalent of Aasimar or Tiefling except with Draconic parentage instead of Outsider. They are too far removed to be half-dragons but not yet human, either.

 

[SteveC]

Well it looks like the Spirit Shaman is on the way out. That's too bad, because now that I've played one I find that it really shines.

The class gets some great abilities against spirits, and the book defines them well enough so that you will encounter them often enough to make the class worthwhile. Some of it's higher level abilities like the ability to bring someone back from the dead without XP loss in the middle of combat are excellent.

That combined with the extra spells from a spontaneous caster combined with the flexibility of changing the spells you can cast, this is a great class!

I think this is an example of one of the "you have to play it" classes.

--Steve