Non-Core Class Survivor: Round 8

[Desdichado]

I just don't think there are enough "fledgling mages" that could be recruited and trained in acadamies to justify war mages being a separate class. This set-up presumes a strong government with a lot of resources and a powerful military presence in a campaign.

I can see drafting or conscripting run-of-the mill people and training them to be warriors, but not warmages. I don't even envision enough volunteer wanna-be warmages to justify them as a separate class; I'd rather just emulate this with sorcerers or wizards.

Well, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about setting that may or may not be justified. I'd rather have the option and decide that it doesn't make sense in a given setting than not have it and want one.

I just don't like the warmage because I think the concept is boring.

 

[lukelightning]

Well, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about setting that may or may not be justified. I'd rather have the option and decide that it doesn't make sense in a given setting than not have it and want one.

Fair enough; I can totally see how some people would want the warmage in their campaign and it does fit certain campaign worlds; my opposition is the same as people who oppose the artificer because it doesn't fit, etc.

Personally I hope 4e allows more customisable classes, so a wizards could take certain class features to make them "war mages" while another wizard takes other options... if all classes had options like this it would reduce the number of redundant core classes.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I'd love to understand the hate-on for the Artificer. Having seen them in play they work rather nicely, and have a niche of their own. Is their vote really a reflection of the anti-Eberron crowd?

For me, it's not a hate of Eberron.

It's a view that the niche doesn't need to be filled (we have wizards and item creation feats), that the filling of it and making it one of the primary purposes bogs down play (let's spend a week hanging around town while you make up a magical whatnot), and that aside from making magic items, the only reason I can see for them is so that they can serve as a healer for the Warforged, which are a race whose mechanical design I don't like. One of the reasons I don't like their mechancial design? They need a new class to heal them.

 

[Glyfair]

They need a new class to heal them.

But they don't. That's just the thing. The abilities of artificers to heal warforged are duplicated on the wizard/sorcerer spell list. In fact, since artificers have a slower "spell" progression, due to having less infusions levels, wizards get the better healing spells sooner at higher levels (admittedly, only repair critical damage do wizards get sooner).

I play in a game as the wizard in a party with a warforged. One wand of repair light damage and I don't even have to prepare the spell. I don't even have to spend my resources on gainng the spell, making scrolls or making wands because I have the warforged bear that burden.

 

[I'm A Banana]

ut they don't. That's just the thing. The abilities of artificers to heal warforged are duplicated on the wizard/sorcerer spell list. In fact, since artificers have a slower "spell" progression, due to having less infusions levels, wizards get the better healing spells sooner at higher levels (admittedly, only repair critical damage do wizards get sooner).

Fair enough. They don't need a new class to heal them.

My other points still stand, though.

 

[Mercule]

It's a view that the niche doesn't need to be filled....

I've seen several "alchemist" classes created for D&D since 1E. In fact, I think I've seen more PC alchemists than clerics. The archetype very much a part of the "classic" D&D feel. In fact, the artificer's niche is probably the one of the few non-psi, non-core class roles that I actually noticed was missing before some splat book presented it (the only other, that I can think of, is the swashbuckler, though that could've been done better).

Really, the artificer has more business being part of the core list of classes than the monk does. Now, there's a class that needs voted off the island.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I've seen several "alchemist" classes created for D&D since 1E. In fact, I think I've seen more PC alchemists than clerics. The archetype very much a part of the "classic" D&D feel. In fact, the artificer's niche is probably the one of the few non-psi, non-core class roles that I actually noticed was missing before some splat book presented it (the only other, that I can think of, is the swashbuckler, though that could've been done better).

Really, the artificer has more business being part of the core list of classes than the monk does. Now, there's a class that needs voted off the island.

I would agree with you if the Artificer's mechanics were less problematic (as I mentioned above, the wand exploit is exacerbated in Eberron with Action Points, which is exactly the setting where they should have been most heavily playtested). Heck, you can remove a lot of problems if you take out the Metamagic abilities.

 

[Ottergame]

I beg to differ, sir. Contingency to cast raise dead on my corpse when I die.

As long as you remember not to do Animate Dead instead.

 

[lukelightning]

As long as you remember not to do Animate Dead instead.

Bah. Reincarnation is the way to go for dread necros. That way you have a whole new body, and can then turn your old dead body into a mummy or something. Bwahahaha!

 

[Glyfair]

The Favored Soul's run of barely missing the cut has ended, with it being voted off this round. The Shadowcaster joins it this round. Will the Artificer be removed this round or will those voting for the Favored Soul & Shadowcaster move their attention to the Psion & Warmage?