Pathfinder 1E Non-D&D /Pathfinder RPGs

[scourger]

Savage Worlds. Supra. And it's free to try: http://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/TD06.pdf

I also think the newest version of Gamma World is quite good and very transferable to players of recent versions of D&D.

 

[amerigoV]

Savage Worlds would be a good choice. It's fast to get the basics down and can support many genres which makes it great for a one-shot just to try it out. If you want, you can download the test drive rules from the main site and one of the one sheet adventures to get the ball rolling and ease new players in (I would link them, but I'm too much of a noob to be allowed to do so ).

Here is a link to the Wild Hunt -- it has the Test Drive Rules and a cool adventure they released on FreeRPG day a year or two ago.
http://www.peginc.com/shop/test-drive-savage-worlds-the-wild-hunt/

Also, I have linked the Making of Savage Worlds. It's what really sold me to try the game (that and its only $10 for the core rules ) It gives a great perspective from folks that used to be in the d20 business on the hows and whys of the system.

http://www.peginc.com/freebies/SWcore/MakingofSW.pdf

 

[Michael Morris]

If there's a drawback to Savage Worlds, it's the "death spiral" mechanic. As you take damage, actions become harder to perform (but you've got to run out of plot protection/bennies before it's actually a problem). Some people don't like that - personally, I do like it; I find it better than D&D's "fine-until-you-drop-dead" way of handling hit points.

Because damage rolls can be aced (if the die's max value is rolled, roll it again and add to the total - open ended), it is possible to go from unhurt to dead in one hit, especially later in the game. The odds math is also schizophrenic - for example a character with a d4 skill trying to hit a target number of 5 (instead of a usual 4) will succeed more often than a character with a d6 skill because of the acing rule. A +1 modifier adds a massive success swing, which gets larger the less skilled the character is. SW is skill centric to the point where abilities are almost never checked at all. The worst part though is even though the system is rules light, it is possible to build two characters with vastly different amounts of optimization if you add edges / ability raises in the wrong order. Skill point costs change by ability scores, so it's imperative that you apply all raises to abilities before figuring out skills to optimize the character. The manual makes no mention of this though.

All that said, its a relatively tight and fun system. I play with a group that uses it for pretty much all non-D&D play. I've ran a tabletop version of Fallout with it and had fun. But it's not without some problems.

 

[Balesir]

Whoa, where to start? Let me begin with a few, interesting but minor examples:

1) The Pool

As an exhibition of how little is required to make a fully functional roleplaying system, James V. West's "The Pool" is a masterpiece. You can download it for free, here. Covers making characters and stories through conflict - no tactical or strategic stuff, just characters and what they (try to) do. The rules cover just 3 pages of A4. I have used them for convention scenarios and home games - just add an rpg world description and mix well...

2) Pendragon

Very tightly focussed on one mythic tale, but a beautiful game for all that. Not tactical or "play to win" style at all; figurines and maps can be colourful and fun but are absolutely not required. Players take the roles of knights in the time of King Arthur; magic use is strictly an NPC thing (except in one edition, and that didn't work out too well). But the knights themselves partake of the magic via their own "virtues" and "vices", that are treated as skills might be in "regular" games. Drive up your Courage and you will gain glory and renown for it - but you may also be compelled to stand there bravely while all around you flee impending doom! The Hag relying on fear magic to beat you, though, may be in for a nasty surprise!

Pendragon is very much written for campaign play; it is almost unique in the rules it has for this. PC knights have one "adventure" per game year, then have a "winter phase" when they train, age, breed and manage their holdings (if they are lucky enough to have any). The full campaign is a game of generations, and you might expect to play your original character's grandson in the final days of Arthur's reign...

3) Universalis

Now available for ten bucks as a PDF (see here), Universalis is a GM-less RPG with a difference. It really boils down collaborative world building to its essence; every player gets to define aspects of the game world, to create and build upon characters and even to make up new rules as you go along! The rules mediate just how much any one person can control things via a currency of "coins" that you use up to create or take control of characters, objects, settings and so on. You get new coins by creating "complications" - instances where a character controlled by you tries to do something to a character controlled by another player against their will. "Complications" are resolved using the characters' abilities, allies, players' coins and so on via a dice pool mechanic. The players of the "winners" get to stipulate things about the outcome (with their newly won coins), then the loser gets some coins to modify things, too.

Obviously there is no need for battlemats and such with Universalis; competitive play in the usual sense is not really the point - the competition lies in who gets to drive the story. We have also dabbled with using Universalis as a background-generating engine for "regular" RPGs with some success, but it's a bit early to say how that works out for us for sure.

 

[Argyle King]

This is a podcast about GURPS. Being that SJ himself is involved in the podcast, I'm not so sure I can talk about the game in a way which more thorough.
http://www.happyjacks.org/?powerpress_pinw=871-podcast

Note: The podcast is somewhat long. Also, it doesn't really zoom in onto 4th Edition until later in the podcast. I'll stop back later and offer my thoughts on the game, but -for now- offering this link to this seems a good place to start.

 

[griffonwing]

HackMaster (New edition)

..........Strengths

1) Old School Foundation - Stats are straight 3d6, down the line. Dropping the average back down to 10-11 instead of 13-15. Nine-grid alignment, although the definitions have been reworked for more accurate portrayal.

There is no dump stat. Every stat is crucial for gameplay for every class. INT/DEX (Attack Mod), WIS (Init/Defense), INT/WIS/CHA (Building Point bonus), DEX (Init/Attack/Defense), LooKS (CHA bonus, Honor/Fame mod), CHA (Honor/Turning/Morale mod, number of protoges). Stats that a fighter, for example, would normally dump (INT/WIS/CHA) are very important.

2) New School Mechanics - It takes many ideas that have been used previously in other systems, and reworked to fit seamlessly together into a more natural and realistic system. Count-up initiative instead of rounds, dice penetration (explosion), Armor and Shields working as they should (increasing your likelihood of getting hit, but decreasing damage).

3) Increasing the longevity of gameplay -Opposed combat allows for a more wide-range of combat potential, allowing lower-level enemies to still be viable even with higher level PCs. The power level of HM is about half of DnD3e/4e/PF, so a 20th level HM fighter is about on par with level 10 of the others.

4) Low Power Level - Weapons and Armor that are +1 to +5 are not magical, they are simply so well made, they grant inherent bonuses due to their superb craftsmanship. Magic weapons start at a +6 enhancement.

5) Magic System - Gone is the incompetent idea of spell levels every other class level, max of 9. This system gives a new spell level for each class level. 12 level caster, 12 level spell. Simple and sensible.

The magic system uses a combination of Vancian (memorized spells) and spell points. All spells have a base spell point cost. You can memorize 1 spell of each level (plus 2 sub-leveled spells). Any non-memorized spell that you know costs double to cast.

6) Clerics - There is a whole chapter devoted to Clerics (14 in the PH, the rest to follow). There is no single cleric class. There are 43 cleric classes. 43 deities and 43 relevant classes. Each class has their own special spell list and abilities. For example, there are 2 different clerics that are wilderness or animal lord based and have animal shape-changing abilities (druids).

Cleric spells are not leveled, and each type of cleric gains access to different spells at different times, or even never. Some gods might grant healing magic at lower levels, while another god might only grant healing magic to the higher followers only, and another might deny it altogether. Two different clerics, even those who are identical in alignment, will not have access to all the same spells.

7) BPs and STPs Building Points. Everything costs Building Points, including your class. In OD&D, certain races could not be certain classes. Dwarves could not be mages or clerics, Elves could not be rangers or paladins. In 3,0, the floodgates opened, and any race had free reign to be any class. In HM, classes cost BPs according to race. Humans can spend 20 BP to be any class. Dwarves, for example, can spend 20 for Fighter, but 75 for mage. The class costs reflects the rarity of that class in the racial caste system.

Skills, are d100 based, and BP costs coupled with free choice allow you to start out with most any character concept and create him.

Plus, with the leveling system of the spells, and the ability of martial combat to increase damage/attack and decrease weapon speed, there is no powercreep for mages in high-level campaigns. Fighters are just as deadly as mages, and no class has the upper hand.


..........Weaknesses

Honestly, the only weakness that I can find about Hackmaster is a temporary weakness. After that, it becomes a strength. This weakness is that it you have to UNLEARN how to play. During the first game, first combat, you will wait for your combat rounds that will not be there. You will try to roll to hit AC, or ask what the AC is. You will go "How much did the little kobold runt hit me for?" when you failed your def roll and he penetrates 3 times on his attack, fording you to either burn honor to try and stay alive or roll up a new character.

I can't wait to start up a new game next month. It's going to be a blast.

 

[steenan]

1. Dungeon World
Shares a lot of tropes and setting assumptions with D&D, but uses a light, simple system. All rolls are made with 2d6+stat, with 10+ as complete success, 7-9 as success with complications ("yes, but...") and 6- as failure. The game strongly focuses on fiction; the fictional situation guides and controls the use of mechanics. Use of maps (both large scale and tactical ones) is strongly encouraged, but there is no need for grids and miniatures.

Strengths:
- Fast and simple character creation, followed by ease of play. All a player needs to know is two pages of general rules and their own character sheet (that contains all information necessary for character creation). It's possible to start playing in 10-15 minutes.
- Very solid GM advice, with strong focus on following the consequences of events in play, not trying to guide them ("play to see what happens"). The GM is given useful tools for introducing escalating dangers while keeping the game player-driven (fronts) and for building up on players' actions (soft and hard moves).
- Focuses on essential parts of various class archetypes, without bogging play down with multitude of abusable rules. Ease of handling helps immersion.
- Rewards good in-character tactics and intelligent play, not mastery of the game system.

Weaknesses:
- Little support for mechanical character customization. You get stats and class moves - and that's all. Characterization must be done through fiction.
- The mechanical system is definitely not simulating anything, nor works as an arbiter between players and the GM. It resolves fictional situations and guides play. It won't replace a shared vision of how the game world works.

2. Mistborn Adventure Game
Based on Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson (great books, by the way). Features a grim, dangerous world, heroic scoundrels as PCs and an extremely fun magic system, completely different than what D&D uses. The default style assumes a balanced mix of sneaking, combat and social interactions and the rules support it.

Strengths:
- Uses a brilliant setting
- Very good system support for player-driven urban sandbox game. Schemes let players direct the action and give the GM advance info on what must be detailed because PCs will interact with it. They also help players feed GM ideas and inspiration.
- Tragedy (worst thing that happened in your life) and destiny (what you believe to be your ultimate purpose) as personal plot-hooks built in every character - and a great characterization tool. Character advancement is strongly tied to resolving these arcs.
- Magic that is very strict and well-defined in what it does and extremely flexible in what it can be used for. Really encourages player creativity.
- Abstract representation of character wealth, influence and luck/intuition. Gives players nice tools and, at the same time, simplifies handling things so that players can focus elsewhere.
- Similar engine used for combat, social and mental conflicts, with elegant treatment of long-term consequences and recovery.

Weaknesses:
- Playing in a novel-based setting may limit creativity of some players and GMs.
- The game book offers support for only one style of play among several that are compatible with the novels.
- Rules encourage strong GM control, which may be confusing when contrasted with tools supporting player-driven style.

3. Mouse Guard
Based on the Mouse Guard comics. Non-magical fantasy, with strong focus on character cooperation and wilderness survival (combat and social interactions are present, but secondary). The game uses simplified Burning Wheel engine; you roll pools of d6s, getting dice from your skills, traits, tools and helpers.

Strengths:
- PC Beliefs, Instincts and Goals as a tool for characterization and a guide for the GM.
- Truly heroic playstyle, with vulnerable characters taking real risks to defend what they care about.
- Introducing complications instead of simple failures. Failing pushes the story in new direction, making things both harder and more interesting, instead of blocking avenues of play.

Weaknesses:
- No thought given to balance in character creation. When used by players with optimization tendencies, it will distort character concepts.
- Conflict resolution based on selecting several actions in advance, secretly. For less tactically-minded people, it easily gets confusing. For tactical experts the dominant strategy quickly becomes obvious. Fortunately, it's easy to play with just basic rolls, no conflict resolution.
- The "fail forward" approach, while very fun for some players, may be counterintuitive and immersion-breaking for others.

 

[GloriousMess]

I actually registered on this forum because I'm looking for threads about other systems, including Warhammer 40,000, due to an imminent campaign of Only War that I'll be running. So hello everyone, I hope I'm in the right place!

As for 40k itself I've never actually DM'd a session, much less a campaign, but from listening to many podcasts about it and thoroughly studying the rulebooks I can safely say it's just as rich as Pathfinder when it comes to background material and depth of gameplay. Having DM'd Pathfinder a fair bit I'm not confident in giving a preview before the first session, but the books reads as though narrative time (during which the players dictate the story 'layer' choices and interactions of the campaign) is actually more the focus than structured time (essentially combat and other initiative-critical situations). Compared to Pathfinder it should be an interesting change, as our group has historically spent more real time in the latter than the former.

One game that I mostly definitely can recommend is All Flesh Must Be Eaten, which uses the Unisystem. I have no experience with Unisystem but the structure of the game allows for a much more flexible initiative-style combat system, in that the number of actions you can perform is limited only by what you think your character can get away with. Subsequent actions after the second are given a cumulative penalty to the roll, meaning you can certainly try and shoot the zombie horde five times, but it's unlikely that you'll hit many of them without being an excellent shooter.
It's also an extremely fun game to DM - RPPR produced a podcast episode of it based in The Shard building in London, which I borrowed for the initial session for my group. It went down very well, with more chaos than usual. The recording for that session goes on for about 4 hours, unusual for us!

 

[Elf Witch]

I have a few questions about Hero. How is it to DM it how much work does the DM have to put into things to run a game? From my understanding the DM has to make all the decisions from what type of characters, magic, basically do everything from the bottom to the top? How true is that?

I have a couple of comments to add about Shadowrun. The game world is dark and gritty and most people do play criminals but how dark you want to take it depends on the players. For example if you want to play more heroic good guys you don't have to play runners you can play a team of first responders for Docwagon ( local paramedics/hospital) they go in and being out the hurt and wounded who have a Docwagon contract for the high up platinum contracts they will send in a battle team to get you out. You can also play a team of security who works for the major corp whose job it is to thwart the runners or even cops who work for one of the private police forces like Lonestar.

I have done all of these and they have been a blast. One of things I really like about the game is that it can be a heavy role playing as well as a real strategic game. Combat can be deadly and there is no get out of death free like in DnD. So if you want to really keep your characters around you plan so you can avoid as much combat as possible.

It can be played with heavy combat but expect to replace characters often.

The magic system is one of my favorites. There are not a ton of spells and how powerful they are depends on what level you learn them at. A fireball can be range from a force 1 to force 6 spell. How powerful depends on many points you are willing to spend on it during creation. Learning new spells is very expense and that helps keep the magic under control. You can cast all day long as long as you resist drain. Eventually though you will start failing rolls and taking drain and as that happens you start getting minuses in everything you do that go up with each level of damage. So eventually you can't help but take drain. But unlike a lot of games mage types are not sucky at using other weapons and can be just as effective as a non mage with a gun. The big difference is that street sams (fighter types) usually have wired reflexes so they go more often in a round than a mage who tries to keep the cyber ware either non existent or very limited because cyberwear impacts the ability to do magic.


Another aspect I like is the edge and flaw character creation. Depending on how the DM does it you can take a certain about flaws to be able to afford a certain amount of edges. And this can lead to some really good character building and some unexpected things in the game. I have always had good DMs who made you work the flaws into your background and knew when to use them against the character. The nice thing is you don't have use them if you don't want to.

 

[Evenglare]

Ive got a couple of recommendations.

First would be Legend of the 5 rings. It's one of the most impressive RPGs I have ever had the pleasure of playing. The system uses d10s and a target number system ( kind of like DC in D&D). The world is simply amazing, it takes place in a world inspired by ancient japan and chinese myths and culture. Go check it out asap.

Second would be GURPS and the HERO system. Both as similar as they use 3d6 roll under system. I love both of the systems because you can do pretty much anything with them since they are generic systems. I love generic systems because once you have system mastery you can play literally any type of campaign you could possibly think of. GURPS is nice because -everything- uses skill checks. HERO is a bit more complicated but it's much more toolboxy than GURPS (imo). Anyway, you cant go wrong with either of them.