Non-Lethal Damage Rules

mikep18103

First Post
Please let me know if I am missing something here but the way the non lethal damage rules read in the book it makes it just about impossible to knock someone out.

You need to do as much non lethal damage as the targets Con to even force a Fortitude save. Very hard to do if you don't have any feats to help out. If you don't equal their Con score nothing happens to the target.

Once a person has a high Con score or MAS score it is impossible for someone to hurt them using Brawl or even Improved Brawl if you don't have at least a +4 Strength bonus. Am I missing something or is this true?

It seems very weak to me. Has anyone thought about using the subdual damage rules from 3E D and D? If you have done it how did it work out?

Mike.
 

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Actually, it's easier than you think. You're right that at first level, you won't be forcing very many saves, but at the higher levels, you can do it pretty consistently on anyone who isn't Tough with Improved Threshold.

Let's see...

Strong4

Str16

Level 1:
Feat1: Brawl
Feat2: Weapon Focus:Unarmed
Talent: Melee Smash

Level 2:
Bonus Feat: Power Attack

Level 3:
Feat: Streetfighting
Talent: Improved Melee Smash

Level 4:
Bonus Feat: Improved Brawl

BAB: +4
Strength Bonus to hit, damage: +3
Talent bonus to damage: +2
Competence bonus to hit: +2
Focus bonus to hit: +1
Streetfighting bonus to damage: 1d4

So, your first attack -- and you only care about your first attack, because the plan is to knock this dude out, not whittle him down HP-wise -- is at:

+4 +3 +2 +1 = +10 melee

And on your first successful hit, you do:

1d8 +3 +2 +1d4 damage

That averages to 7 +5 = 12 points damage, enough to force a save on your average Joe some of the time. A good roll could do up to 8+4+5 = 17 points damage, enough to force a roll on just about anyone your level or lower.

And that's before Power Attacking. You WILL be Power Attacking, because you've got the attack bonus to hit a fair amount of the time regardless of how much you Power Attack. You don't get any secondary attacks yet, and even if you did, you don't care about those anymore -- your object is not to do the most damage, but to do the most damage in ONE HIT -- and that means power attack.

So you get your buddies to get behind a bad guy, and then you charge him -- which gives you a +2 to hit from the charge and a +2 to hit from the flanking -- a +4, which is exactly enough to cancel out a +4 from maximum Power Attacking. Now you're doing an AVERAGE of 12+4= 16 points of damage on a hit, and can do as much as 21.

Not bad for a fourth level character, no?

At higher levels, get the Knockout Punch feats and Improved Initiative, so that you can take people out of the fight before they can get into it.

Does this help a little?
 

What you have said takyris is true but it also involves a lot of feats. And if I don't do enough damage to force a MAS check then nothing happens.

If I use the Subdual rule from DandD to reduce his hit points even if I never do enough damage in one single hit to force a save and possibly knock him out with one hit, I wear him down by reducing his hit points.

It just seems more natural that way to me. I don't understand why the took the reduction of hitpoints out for non-lethal combat.
 

In my Dark*Matter/Hellboy game I use the following little tweek...

Any non-lethal attack requires a Fort Save vs. a DC = to the damage done. Most of the time (the characters are only 2nd level) this ranges around 3-6 points of damage and MOST of the time people make their save BUT they do fail, etc. It has worked for us so far (not 100% happy with it BUT I don't know if I want to bring in Subdule damage from D&D, I might but not yet).
 
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Re: It requires a lot of feats.

Yes. Yes it does. On the other hand, it shouldn't be something that everyone is good at. Nonlethal damage isn't just your ability to knock someone out -- it's your ability to knock someone out without them suffering any long-term damage whatsoever. That takes training. Most "knockouts" are really just melee damage that goes over the threshold and drops the person to -1, at which point the person makes a Fort save to stabilize...

Take a good look at two different mechanics for me.

d20 Modern: One hit to knock out

D&D: Many hits to knock out

Conclusion: d20 Modern allows for the one-punch knockout.

- - - - -

d20 Modern: Possible to knock out anyone with a single hit.

D&D: Without rogues, impossible to knock out anyone level 5 or higher, since you just can't do that much subdual damage in one attack.

Conclusion: d20 Modern allows for more powerful people to be KO'd, making it possible for the heroes to karate-chop the bad guy on the back of the head before he can raise an alarm -- whereas, in D&D, if that bad guy had 50 hit points, he'd certainly have a round or two to scream bloody murder even if James Bond himself were doing the chopping.

- - - - -

d20 Modern: Damage is calculated hit by hit.

D&D: Damage is calculated by a separate hit point total.

Conclusion: d20 Modern allows for slightly faster play, because there are fewer numbers to track in terms of knockout damage.

- - - - -

d20 Modern: A character can be knocked out with nonlethal damage, which has NO chance of long-term damage or death, or by a single lethal blow that exceeds his Con score, followed by a failed Fort save, which takes the character to -1. Once at -1, he gets a Fort save each round (DC20) to stabilize.

D&D: A character cannot be knocked out except through subdual damage -- the massive damage threshold is 50, not Con-based, and a failed save causes death, not dying-ness. A character who is down and dying has a flat 10% chance to stabilize, rather than a Fort save.

Conclusions (this one is important):

1) In D&D, going into negative hit points is extremely dangerous -- you never become more likely to stabilize, and unless someone heals you, there's a good chance that you'll die. There's also no mechanic by which otherwise powerful people can be taken out with one well-executed hit by any character except possibly a rogue with a lot of sneak-attack ability. Rangers, the deadly snipers of the woods, cannot knock people out. Fighters, for all their martial training, cannot knock people out. Monks can do it eventually, but not with one hit. Only a rogue, and only against a relatively weak opponent.

2) In d20 Modern, on the other hand, going into the negatives is not that big a deal in terms of immediate likelihood of death. Your character gets better at making Fort saves, and it's very likely that he'll stabilize if he's got a level or two in something with decent Fort. d20 Modern nonlethal damage DOES allow for someone to be knocked out with one shot, regardless of hit points -- which means that a stealthy ninja-type could drop down from the rafters and knock out a 10th level goon with one hit.

In short, in d20 Modern, going into the negatives from lethal damage is easier, due to the Con damage threshold, but less dangerous, because of the Fort save to stabilize (although still a hassle, given the lack of healing). For someone who wants to knock people out without special feats, the damage you do in normal melee can take care of this. Knockouts should only be taken by someone who wants to specialize in knocking people out without doing them any long-term hurt -- and if you purchase your feats properly (you know, the ones you get at every even basic class level, every third character level, and so on?), you'll be in fine shape to knock out mooks whenever you want.

I don't think that nonlethal damage is BETTER than subdual damage, mind you. It's just that they work well for different games. I wouldn't want to play a D&D game where my characters could be one-punched out by an ogre even if they were 9th level, and I wouldn't want to play a d20 Modern game where a 6th level guard with 40 hit points couldn't be knocked out, but had to be battered down over the course of several rounds, blowing his alarm whistle the whole time.

Does this help? It's really just a different mechanic -- making people fragile and using fewer numbers...
 

Yes it does help your explanation was very well thought out and thanks for trying to explain it ot me.

I understand what you are saying the problem I have with the system is if you fail to knock out in one blow (ie you dont do enough damage to force a MDT save or you do enough damage but the target makes the MDT save) nothing happens.

The way I see these hit points you did could still come off the targets hit points as subdual damage (healing at subdual rate) just like the do in D and D.

It will allow my players and the baddies to have another option besides lethal damage to solve their problems. I can still use the d20 Modern MDT rules for the one shot knock out. And I won't have my players pulling out guns all the time to stop their opponents. I will also be able to beat them unconscious instead of shooting them all the time.

To me it give the ordinary NPC the chance to eventually overcome the big bad 8th level PC by beating him down. Is it wrong to think this way?

Mike.
 

Actually, I think this is the biggest problem with the non-lethal damage rules - if you didn`t train for it (take Feats and Talents), than you have to kill your enemies.

This is, maybe, realistic (though I doubt it), but it doesn`t make a good play style.

I would use the massive damage rules mostly as is, but add the concept of subdual damage of D&D to it. For compensation, consider removing the rule that a character becomes at least dazed if he suffers nonlethal damage equal to his Con Score (only keep the unconciousness rule)

Mustrum Ridcully
 

I would use the massive damage rules mostly as is, but add the concept of subdual damage of D&D to it. For compensation, consider removing the rule that a character becomes at least dazed if he suffers nonlethal damage equal to his Con Score (only keep the unconciousness rule)

This is close to what I was considering doing. I was going to keep both the daze and the knockout rules for non lethal combat but maybe I will just go with the knockout rule.

I'm still not sure. My players have agreed to using the subdual rules but I'm not sure they have thought everything through. Heck I'm still not sure what over all effect it will have on the game the only way to find out for sure is to use the rules for a while and see what happens.

I just want my players to have some options instead of killing everyone they meet in a dark alley. This also gives me an option instead of killing them as well. Works for both sides I think. Plus the subdual damage will come back much faster then lethal damage. Thus keeping the game moving.

I just think you should not need to be a trained martial artist or brawler to knock someone out even with repeated blows. If the average person beat on me for a while I know I would fall unconscious from the pounding.

Mike.
 

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Actually, I think this is the biggest problem with the non-lethal damage rules - if you didn`t train for it (take Feats and Talents), than you have to kill your enemies.

You can choke then to unconciousness or use a stun gun / taser.
 

If you happen not to have a Stun Gun or a Taser, you are out of luck.
Chocking someone to unconsciousness is really difficult and dangerous for both parties (Actually, is there a unconciousness phase? Doesn`t it go directly to -1 hp?)

Mustrum Ridcully
 

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