Non-Lethal Damage Rules

[takyris]

You don't have to kill them. You have to take them to negative hit points. You're then free to treat their injury and ensure that they don't die. Or they could stabilize on their own.

Really... Fort Save, DC20. What are the chances that someone's really going to die by failing this save a whole bunch of times.

The Medic advanced class can bring someone back from -10 or lower. That means that -10 is NOT dead -- it's "near death". That makes the negatives even less like death. The negatives are just you being unconscious.

I've said it multiple times, so I don't want to beat a dead horse, but:

1) It's not that hard to knock someone out with nonlethal damage. A high-level dude with a Tonfa and Power Attack can do it with very little trouble. A low-level guy with the right feats can do it, too. You get enough feats in this game that it's not that big a deal.

2) Taking someone into the negatives does not mean that you're killing them. It's not a mortal wound. It's an unconscious-level injury. If, every time someone in d20 Modern goes to -1 hit points, you describe it as a mortal wound, then you're getting the flavor text wrong, and that's the source of your problem.

3) Nonlethal damage means knocking someone out with no chance whatsoever of actually hurting them in the long term. It's actually kind of hard to do, and that's a good thing. If a pressure-point strike doesn't hit right on, it doesn't do much damage at all. That's as it should be.

4) Don't forget that even if the target makes his save, he's dazed for one round. That gives the rest of the party a great chance to gather 'round and commence the pummeling.

 

[MThibault]

Maybe I'm missing something but a half-decent Strength Bonus will allow you to knock out an average person on a critical hit without any Feats or Talents.

1d3+2, if you roll maximum damage on a critical you can force an opponent with a 10 Con to roll a Fort Save.

A single feat (Brawl) will increase that to 16 Con, and at level 4 if you hike up that 15 to a 16 (assuming standard array, for, well, standardization) then you can knock out an opponent who has an 18 Con.

Granted, the fight will probably take 20 or 30 rounds or more before someone gets knocked out -- but that's only 2-3 minutes of game time, or about the length of a boxing round, so it actually is pretty quick. If it takes 240 rounds and no one has been knocked out, then they've gone 12 rounds and the judges will have to make a decision.

If you use subdual Damage/HP, then all boxers will have to have either a huge AC or 100+HP, or both, in order to last 10 or 12 rounds in the ring with even a mediocre opponent, and every match will end in a KO.

Subdual Damage allows for cinematic and heroic D&D style fights, but IMO it doesn't fit well with a Modern Game.

Granted it would be nice to have an element of chance, so that a mediocre combattant could have a slim, slim chance of knocking out the tough bruiser, but the numbers are probably so small that it wouldn't be worth rolling.

Cheers

[edited to clarify some terminology]

 

[mikep18103]

Subdual Damage allows for cinematic and heroic D&D style fights, but IMO it doesn't fit well with a Modern Game.

But isn't d20 modern a bit on the cinematic side to begin with MThibault?

The way the rules are written for non-lethal combat if you have a Con of above 8 the average person with lets say even a +1 strength modifier and no training can never knock someone unconscious. They would do a 2d3+2 even with a critical hit max damage would be 8 points.

Ok now I have no training in any form of combat, and have been in very few fights in my life but this seems a bit far fetch to think I could never hurt anyone in anyway but a skinny little dweb or a child.

Now the subdual rules are apparently not the best way to correct the problem but there must be way to make this a little more realistic in my opinion.

For now I'm going to use the rules as they are written but there must be a better solution out there. Things I can think of off the top of my head are:

1. Lower the MDT for non-lethal damage (not a good idea).

2. As the fight goes on, allow the non-lethal damage done to accumlate to up until it passes the targets MDT then have them make the FORT save. (not a horrible idea, but more book keeping).

I don't know. I've used the rule the way it is written and I just don't like it very much. Guess you can't please everyone.

Mike.

 

[Forcegypsy]

I posted this a long time ago, and I still maintain it is the fix with the least amount of bookeeping involved.

Check for knockout under the following conditions:

- Character takes non-lethal damage equal to Con.
- Character takes non-lethal damage equal to current hp.

What this does is make it possible for the mooks, extras, redshirts (or whatever you call them) to be taken out in hollywood fashion by anyone on a semi-regular basis, while still protecting the higher level types. If you want to knock out npc's higher than 2nd-3rd level, then spend the feats.

Use as you like.

Btw, the MAS save and the Non-lethal knockout save are different. To trigger a MAS save you need to do more damage than your opponents Con. The non-lethal save is triggered by damage equal to Con. (this is just a clarification as I made this mistake when I first started playing Modern.)

 

[takyris]

Gypsy-dude -- I think that's a great fix, and it's probably the one that I would use, at least once the characters got to a level where they had more hit points than Con. I don't like the constant threat of danger at low levels.

One side note, for people thinking of using Subdual in d20 Modern instead. If you do that, you darn well better get rid of everything in the Brawl chain except Streetfighting. It is WAY too powerful to have subdual damage accumulate while someone can take two feats and do as much damage as a longsword. Brawl was designed with "it's all or nothing" in mind...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, if you see it as a similar rule to sneak attack, it seems fine.

Remember it is still not as easy to get an (improved) knockdown situations, because the only counting condition is beeing flat-footed (not flanking, not invisible, not blinking or whatever else). If you remove the "daze"-part of the nonlethal damage rule, it will probably work just as fine as before (or, better, what was the point of the whole rule change ).

You still have to decide how fast subdual damage heals, and if you can remove the unconciousnous condition easily. (I suggest: Yes, you should be able to do that.)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[takyris]

"Okay, Steve, we're almost done creating your character. We've just got a couple feats left to pick, and then we're good. Now, would you like Improved Brawl or Weapon Focus:Longsword?"

"Um, I dunno, what's the difference?"

"Well, with Improved Brawl, you do 1d8 subdual damage (in this house rule) with your bare fists, and you get a +2 to hit."

"And the longsword thing?"

"You get a +1 to hit. And you have to use a longsword for it to work. But bear in mind, there are some things immune to subdual damage..."

"Yeah, just the same, I think I'm gonna have to go with the Improved Brawl."

That's what I'm talking about. Forget the knockouts -- Brawl all by itself is too powerful if you keep subdual damage. It's the equivalent of being a mid-level martial artist against most creatures (since most creatures are vulnerable to subdual, and once you've knocked them out, you've won the fight), only with fewer feats expended.

 

[Psion]

It seems very weak to me. Has anyone thought about using the subdual damage rules from 3E D and D?

To put it succinctly, yes.

I fail to see why they avoided doing so in the first place. Subdual damage is NOT that hard to track.

 

[takyris]

Because, like they said on their website various and sundry times, they wanted a system that would let a 9th-level hero take out a 6th-level Strong/Tough guard in one shot. That happens a lot in the movies -- the guard who might put up a bit of a fight in straight-up combat goes out like a light when you take him from behind. Or even not from behind -- with nonlethal rules, you can take him out of the fight with a series of pressure point strikes.

Maybe I should just put a link to my fourth-level character -- the one I posted above, who can force a save on someone with a 21 Con without making a critical hit. And then, every time someone says, "But it's too hard!", I'll just reply with the URL. Because, for crying out loud, all the arguments seem to boil down to:

1) It's too hard -- which it ain't.

2) I liked whittling opponents down -- which still works with hit points, and since d20 Modern dying rules are so much more lenient, you have VERY little chance of killing someone unless you really want to kill them. Beyond that, whittling down means that you HAVE to whittle down every guard you want to knock out, because with the subdual system, a guard with 50 hit points will never get knocked out with a single shot.

3) It makes no sense that nonlethal damage doesn't accumulate -- the statement often made by people who have consciously disregarded logic and reason. The two guys whaling on each other all afternoon and never doing real damage would have switched over to lethal damage as soon as it became obvious that little strikes weren't going to do it. If you're breaking an arm or a nose or a knee, you're doing LETHAL damage. This argument generally equates to, "I'm using the wrong flavor text for the game mechanic, and I want you to change the game mechanic to fix it."

They're both good systems. You just have to know how to use them. Personally, I like being able to knock people out with one shot. If you really want to wear people down without using actual hit points, then change the flavor text, ditch Brawl & Co., and be my guest.

 

[Psion]

Because, like they said on their website various and sundry times, they wanted a system that would let a 9th-level hero take out a 6th-level Strong/Tough guard in one shot.

Tracking subdual does not prevent that. You can STILL use the MDT rule for subdual as stated.

1) It's too hard -- which it ain't.

It is. The example above uses what is basically a trained boxer or bodyguard. The type of person who scores TKO IRL. That's all well and good, but it's not the norm. The norm is a pair of less experienced scuffers who beat the snot out of each other through accumulated battering.

2) I liked whittling opponents down -- which still works with hit points, and since d20 Modern dying rules are so much more lenient, you have VERY little chance of killing someone unless you really want to kill them. Beyond that, whittling down means that you HAVE to whittle down every guard you want to knock out,

Again, no you don't. Tracking subdual does not mean ignoring the knockout rules. Uning it in the subdual realm is a perfectly simple to understand parallel to MDT in the lethal realm.

3) It makes no sense that nonlethal damage doesn't accumulate -- the statement often made by people who have consciously disregarded logic and reason. The two guys whaling on each other all afternoon and never doing real damage would have switched over to lethal damage as soon as it became obvious that little strikes weren't going to do it.

Non sequitir. And if you are appealing to reality, that is exactly what does not happen. Humans have a built in restraint instinct. When you beat the snot out of an opponent, your instinct is to NOT kill them. In reality, lethal force is usually only applied when you begin the fight using it.

But you never beat the snot out of your opponent in d20 modern as written. It is either fresh or out. Anything that is not a TKO is meaningless.

If you're breaking an arm or a nose or a knee, you're doing LETHAL damage. This argument generally equates to, "I'm using the wrong flavor text for the game mechanic, and I want you to change the game mechanic to fix it."

That's a way to look at it, but the system does not back you up. People with no real training can break noses. Not so in d20 modern.