Non-random D&D Miniatures

[Mark CMG]

(. . .) just being difficult.

(. . .) is disingenious and unreasonably argumentative.

Well, WotC has put it out there and asked what people wanted and I am responding. That doesn't seem difficult or argumentative to me. That just feels like answering a question.

Basically, what is being asked for is a bag of 20 orcs (or whatever) for $10.

$20.00 (US).

 

[3catcircus]

Mark,

I'm with you all the way on this.

I let WoTC know my wants - humanoid warbands. Lots of trolls. Lots of giants. A pack of minis containing one mini for each age of a given dragon type's life. Environment packs (forest pack with deer, bears, wolves), etc. A city-dwellers or rural dwellers pack (humans/demi-humans - thugs, watchmen, farmers, merchants, etc.)

I think everyone who is telling you that the market won't bear you getting 20 standard orcs is *completely* missing the point. The market won't bear it because the people in the market have been foolish. $20+ for a troll? Just because it was made a rare to support the DDM game? Go scratch.

I've, from the very first pack of harbingers I bought, argued that the minis, if random, needed to have their rarity set by the rarity that they appear in the D&D rpg (remember the old 1st/2nd edition rarity for each monster in the MM?)

I'm not saying that they should set non-random packs of every creature. But given the fact that the aftermarket has been buying cases, breaking them out, and selling warbands of common D&D rpg opponents (orcs, kobolds, goblins, etc.) since shortly after the minis debuted, there is no reason why WoTC can't have their chinese manufacturer dust off the dies/molds used from previous sets of minis and start cranking out minis.

 

[delericho]

The problem is that I think the price of a miniature pack with all the miniatures for an adventure would be too high to be practical. A selection of hard to find miniatures and perhaps other key miniatures might be very attractive.

If it doesn't contain all the minis I need, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in buying random packs to complete the set, and the secondary market is considerably less effective outside of the US.

I would be interested in a "Red Hand of Doom" or "Sunless Citadel" pack (or, rather, an equivalent for newer modules) priced at up to $100, but only if it includes all the minis.

(The fun thing there is that once I had one such pack, there's every likelihood that I would then buy at least a few boosters from each release thereafter. Once I've made that first purchase, it's likely I will continue. But, until then it's reasonably easy to just avoid the minis.)

I myself love the idea of taking, say, a short adventure (in the style of a short Dungeon mag adventure) and package about 15 minis with it, and sell it with tiles included, for $35.00. I think it would do pretty well as about two or three evenings of entertainment. Heck, people spend more on movies!

I like this idea too, except I would probably advocate building the adventure to be playable in four hours or so, and including character sheets for PCs suitable for use in the adventure (plus minis for the same). Even better would be if they could somehow construct the adventure to be run without advance preparation on the part of the DM... but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

 

[Glyfair]

If it doesn't contain all the minis I need, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in buying random packs to complete the set, and the secondary market is considerably less effective outside of the US.

The problem is that WotC isn't concerned about what you specifically want, but at what will sell enough to be profitable enough. I doubt many will pay $100 for a Red Hand of Doom set (and I expect such a set would be over $100 if it had every needed monster for every encounter, even using double duty miniatures).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Didn't we have the discussion about many packs of 20 critters already? I think it was even linked further above.

So sum it up: It was said (buy people in the business) that it won't happen, at least not in the scope many want it to be.

The current thing works because there are only a handful of products to distribute and sell (and make shelf space for). Everyone from Wizards over the distributors up to the stores like that.

If sell minis in single blisters, there are suddenly dozens of products, and many shops won't have the space for such a product - or, more precisely, not for another such product. And it's unlikely that Wizards could compete with Games Workshop. That would get the whole product line shut down in short order.

Now, special packs aren't much better:
One way would be to release only very few packs - and many would still be no better off than before, because "their" packs weren't released. "There are orcs, sure, but what of my kobolds?"
Or, they would release a lot of different packs, and the same situation as with single figures would arise.

Another problem with dozens of packs is that not all would sell well. Stores would not even order those who don't sell well, or those who might not sell well.


So Wizards stay with their current scheme of sets. While they seem to have started to introduce creatures of sizes smaller than gargantuan into the Icons line, until now the only plans known to us are more "traditional" icons with some "supportive cast" (which happens to be two very popular characters). Even if they start making icons packs where no gargantuan or colossal critter is included, I doubt that one of their two icons a year would be "The Twenty Orcs (buy 50 and get a certain novel by R.A.S for free)" They'll probably want to sell mooks in the boosters.

Face it: For every one of you who refuses to buy everything but orcs-by-the-dozen packs, there seem to be at least two people who buy the boosters, directly, or indirectly via the secondary market. It seems that the DDM line seems to be pretty well.

I like this idea too, except I would probably advocate building the adventure to be playable in four hours or so, and including character sheets for PCs suitable for use in the adventure (plus minis for the same). Even better would be if they could somehow construct the adventure to be run without advance preparation on the part of the DM... but I'm not sure how feasible that is.

I know that I wouldn't like it.

There is a game that is fast and uses pre-built critters: DDM Skirmish. When I play D&D, I don't want a character that's good for 4 hours and is then thrown away. I really think that oneshots don't warrant big packs with minis and all in it. I want to get about 20 levels out of a character, it being played for months.

Just my opinion, but I think that many share it. I don't think too many would go for this.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

The problem is that WotC isn't concerned about what you specifically want, but at what will sell enough to be profitable enough.

Exactly. They still have to make a profit out of this - the higher profit, the better. Not because they're evil, but because they're a business.

The profit they make by selling non-random packs beyond special cases like this has to be more than what they lose in sales of random boosters because of this, for if you can get your 20 orcs here, you won't buy boosters, and you won't buy on the secondary market, which buys boosters. Some may be brought into DDM with such packs, but others will buy fewer boosters because of it.


Oh, and one thing that seems to have been missed: So the secondary market can't deliver what you want (be it harbinger orc warriors or whatever else)? What makes you think the or-theme-pack will? Will that be 20 orc warriors? Will that be any orc warriors? Maybe they will be some orcs with axes, some with clubs and crude shields, some priests/spellcasters with quarterstaffs, and some javelin-throwers. So those who wanted their orcs to have greatclubs, or sword and board, or other sorts of spellcasters, or bows instead of javelins, will still be screwed. But they will be screwed on a more expensive level, since non-random packs are more expensive than random packs.

 

[Thurbane]

I think a point that a lot of people are missing is that some of us feel that you shouldnt have to rely on a secondary market to get WotC product.

How about if you couldn't buy X-Box 360 games except in randomized packs, and if you wanted a particular game, had to go through eBay? It's not a great comparison, but still...

If it doesn't contain all the minis I need, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in buying random packs to complete the set, and the secondary market is considerably less effective outside of the US.

This is another point a lot of people take for granted...

 

[smootrk]

I think a point that a lot of people are missing is that some of us feel that you shouldnt have to rely on a secondary market to get WotC product.

How about if you couldn't buy X-Box 360 games except in randomized packs, and if you wanted a particular game, had to go through eBay? It's not a great comparison, but still...
This is another point a lot of people take for granted...

Your comparison is exactly accurate; only the dollar amounts different. I think that even relatively small packs could sell well, albeit maybe not in mom/pop hobby shops... but in larger outlets like Target, Walmart, KMart, etc. For instance, many action figures are still collectible, and yet even after all the years you still find Star Wars figures (although the models change) or other similar collectible 'toys'.

 

[MerricB]

I think a point that a lot of people are missing is that some of us feel that you shouldnt have to rely on a secondary market to get WotC product.

Then: bad luck.

The reason that you don't get non-random D&D Minis is because the market won't support it. It won't make a profit for Wizards. They can do so in exceptional cases, such as for these icon packs, but anyone expecting a lot of really cheap Orc Warriors isn't going to get it. Indeed, if we see more than 3-4 "Scenario" packs a year I'd be surprised.

There is an opening for 20 Orc Warrior packs from non-Wizards producters. Why haven't we seen it? There have been companies that have investigated it, and they've abandoned it.

(Incidentally, I estimate a pack of 20 Orc Warriors from Wizards would cost between US$30 and US$40. Scary, huh?)

Days of Wonder, the makers of the BattleLore miniature/board game, have just abandoned their plan of selling single units in blister packs. Retailers and Distributors wouldn't stock them. Instead, they're going with packs of multiple minis. Non-random, non-painted. Each of their packs will be about $20; I haven't been able to work out how many minis you'll get in each.

Cheers!

 

[Nifft]

(Incidentally, I estimate a pack of 20 Orc Warriors from Wizards would cost between US$30 and US$40. Scary, huh?)

Yeah. I don't disrespect random packaging.

I just want to be able to pick what kind of NPCs I'm going to be killing challenging my PCs with.

Cheers, -- N