Non-Spellcasters

[Cheiromancer]

I'm starting to get a picture of what a high level wizard will be able to do in our system- he can do an awful lot. It's less clear what an epic fighter or rogue will be capable of. I strongly suspect they will be very much subordinate to the spellcasters.

Now this might be OK. One legitimate style of adventuring is to have everyone be an epic caster; I think there will be enough variety that way. And folks could even be combat brutes: using some variation of Tenser's transformation, perhaps, or a well-buffed [polymorph]. Or you could have mages as PCs, and the fighters and rogues will be NPCs and cohorts and such; kind of an Ars Magica model.

However I am tempted to give the non-magical classes some compensation. At levels when they don't give feats to give them SR (or a boost to existing SR). Or Spell Immunity/Spell Stowaway to particular spells. Ways of saying "Oh no you don't" and/or "Me too!" Some fig leaf with which to preserve their dignity when the epic spellcasters are strutting their stuff.

Perhaps we shouldn't worry about this. Or at least not much; devising a workable epic spell system is a monumental job, we shouldn't try to fix the whole epic system. But I think a page or two of concrete suggestions might help maintain a semblance of class balance, and make epic wizards spare a thought for the threat posed by epic characters who aren't spellcasters.

Do you have any thoughts along these lines?

 

[Fieari]

I know I keep harping on this point, but I think that quite a bit of the discrepancy is removed when you give fighters their good BAB back, especially if you also use more metamartial feats like power attack and combat expertise. it means that against most equal level foes, the fighter will never miss, but not only is that what power attack is for, but many of the spellslingers spells are unavoidable too-- and I mean, it doesn't take much effort to see how powerful spellcasters get, as you said.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Yeah. If the spellcasters continue to grow in magical power, and they do, it seems odd to require that fighters and barbarians have their BAB nerfed. Would you grant full BAB to Eldritch Knights too? Or only classes without spellcasting? What about paladins and rangers?

Any ideas about rogues and bards?

Tangent:
One thing I noticed about epic progressions is that epic bonus feats are absolutely essential. And you only get them after either 20 levels in a base class or 10 levels in a prestige class. Rampant multi-classing and cherry-picking carry a heavy penalty at epic levels. Or taking short prestige classes. It is very ironic that taking all 5 levels of the Archmage prestige class will likely make you an inferior archmage compared to someone who went wizard 20. And Mystic Theurge... ugh. Loremaster is OK, though, and Eldritch Knight.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I agree about BAB - it should simply increase in the same fashion as nonepic BAB (for all classes). It's all about how much you can afford to put into your Power Attack. Otherwise, it's feats. Especially feats which grant amazing (Su) abilities which spells can't replicate.

If a Fighter gets Devastating Critical at 25th level, he should be able to do some crazy sh*t by 50th level. More than just kill lots of bad guys in his Improved Whirlwind Devastating Great Cleave - he can do that anyway. I'd also like to see feats which specifically have 'lame' prerequisite epic feats (like Legendary Leaper) - to have them open up possibilities in the way that Dodge does. They could be pretty meaty.

Given the scope of spells, it becomes harder and harder to think of abilities that can't be dupilcated by an epic wizard.

All multiclassed warrior-types will default to the Fighter class at epic levels in order to gain access to the feats. There needs to be some really flavorful differentiation available. Epic weapon style and tactical feats. Supernatural abilities. Supernatural resistances.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Part of this, at least, is very doable. It can be explained that the new rules for epic spellcasting and the metamagic feats make epic wizards gain rapidly in power; the fighting classes shouldn't have their BAB nerfed.

[snip]

We can change the prerequisites for Epic Fighter so that anyone with a +20 BAB can take levels in it.

Should something analogous be done for epic wizard and sorcerer? Caster level 20 and 9th level prepared arcane spells lets you take levels of epic wizard; caster level 20 and 9th level spontaneous arcane spells lets you take levels of epic sorcerer? As it is, people with various prestige classes can't get those juicy epic bonus feats. Pity the poor archmage who goes epic.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'm hesitant about saying that everyone's BAB increases at the previous rate, though. Eldritch Knight, for example, is a bit of a problem. If it has full BAB and full spellcasting it will be too strong- won't it?

Honestly, I don't think it's a problem. EK gets a bonus epic feat every 4 levels (vs. Wizard's 3 and Fighter's 2); material resources have to be split between class functions. d6 hit points.

 

[Fieari]

Any ideas about rogues and bards?

Some ideas. For rogues, I think the key is in revamping the epic skill system. Something along the lines of after X skill ranks in a particular skill, you effectively gain an SLA at will as an extraordinary ability.

To an extent, the system already supports this. The "fanatic" category, for instance, is effectively a "charm person" that can't be dispelled, and comes from enough ranks in diplomacy. Of course, in the ELH, there's no save against this effect, or even an opposed roll, which makes it broken, one of the reasons I think it needs to be revamped. In other case, like the extra abilities of balance and such, the abilities granted by high checks are set too far out... there's no reason to make balancing on a cloud so difficult when a low level spellcaster can just cast fly.

It might be reasonable to make these purely "unlockable" abilities based on skill RANKS invested, much like you did with the spellcraft prerequisite for epic spells. It would start turning the rogue into a hedge mage, but one that works even in anti-magic and dead-magic zones, and who can't have his work dispelled. Skill use is the rogue's niche, after all, with only a secondary role in combat. It'd be nice to be able to give that back to him.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Some ideas. For rogues, I think the key is in revamping the epic skill system. Something along the lines of after X skill ranks in a particular skill, you effectively gain an SLA at will as an extraordinary ability.

To an extent, the system already supports this. The "fanatic" category, for instance, is effectively a "charm person" that can't be dispelled, and comes from enough ranks in diplomacy. Of course, in the ELH, there's no save against this effect, or even an opposed roll, which makes it broken, one of the reasons I think it needs to be revamped. In other case, like the extra abilities of balance and such, the abilities granted by high checks are set too far out... there's no reason to make balancing on a cloud so difficult when a low level spellcaster can just cast fly.

It might be reasonable to make these purely "unlockable" abilities based on skill RANKS invested, much like you did with the spellcraft prerequisite for epic spells. It would start turning the rogue into a hedge mage, but one that works even in anti-magic and dead-magic zones, and who can't have his work dispelled. Skill use is the rogue's niche, after all, with only a secondary role in combat. It'd be nice to be able to give that back to him.

I think this is a good idea. At what ranks do you think that these abilities ought to become available, and at what rate should they progress? (i.e. 0 level spells become available at 30 ranks, 1st level spells become available at 33 ranks, etc...)

Also, would such abilities be truly spell-like, or would they be extraordinary abilities that emulate spell effects? And... For those effects that granted a saving throw, what would determine the DC?

Later
silver

 

[Cheiromancer]

There's an interesting thread in General: How Broken Is It to Just Advance Characters Past 20th w/o Epic Rules?

One of the big issues I can see with it also is the difference in saves and BAB progression*. Just continuing the charts means a low save can be crippling, and low BAB against tougher and tougher foes makes it impossible. For example, what you need to remotely challenge a lvl 20+ tank would become impossible for a lvl 20+ non-tank to hit. And anything that requires a save becomes either ridiculously easy for some characters, or utterly impossible for others depending on who the encounter is tailored towards.

It becomes less fun when so many of the rolls boil to either "only fail on a 1" or "only succeed on a 20". Those situations are certainly fun on rare occasions, but not when it's nearly every single roll.

However, plentiful magic can mitigate these. Or just use the Epic rules of "everyone gets +1 BAB, and +1 to all saves". That would be easiest, but if you want to keep classes different, maybe just allow every class to raise 2 or 3 out of the 4 (BAB, Fort, Ref, Will) - player's choice - at each level.

But, also in the 20-30 range, with magic items and buff spells, it might still be a non-issue.


* Yes, I know Epic rules doesn't technically progress BAB because of the number of attacks issue, it instead adds some silly bonus to your BAB. Really, it's pretty much saying "These aren't apples since you can't have more than 4 apples. These here are quapples that just happen to look, feel, and taste just like apples. Just never call them apples, of course."

The easiest balance example is BAB, which diverges widely if you follow the standard progression. A Ftr40 would end up with a +40, a Wiz40 only +20, and the disparity gets worse as the level rises. At some point, any monster whose AC presents a challenge for the fighter becomes totally impossible for the wizard to hit, even with a touch attack. If these two characters were in the same party, it'd become difficult to design encounters in which they both could contribute.

*Would* there be a problem if there were 20+ point discrepancies in saving throws and BABs between characters?

 

[Sepulchrave II]

*Would* there be a problem if there were 20+ point discrepancies in saving throws and BABs between characters?

Saves, yes. BAB, no. I don't believe so.

Edit: I'm of the opinion that epic save progressions might be extended to all creatures with more than 20HD, as well.

I also think that a quickened true strike goes a long way towards alleviating any fears a wizard might have regarding his ranged attack. Remember, with a continuation of nonepic BAB, nobody is being penalized - and full progression classes simply regain it, and get a benefit as a result - i.e. they hit stuff more often - or, more likely, they can power attack more.

I don't buy the argument about "but the mage can't hit..." The mage has suffered no loss of combat effectiveness. He has retained his 1/2 progression. I ask: why is the party suddenly being faced by opponents with very high ACs?

You should expect a fighter to hit everything at 50th level, all of the time. It's part and parcel of his function.

I also invoke 'hit points are an abstraction.'