Nontraditional Mystic Theurge combo...

[Pax]

It wouldn't be 30th level, more like 22nd... Apostle casts as Apostle level + 1/2 other casting levels. As you gain Mystic Theurge levels, you gain levels of Sorc/Wizard as well. For a Wiz(Sorc) 9 / Apostle 2 / Theurge 9 you would have 18 levels of Arcane caster and 20 levels of Divine caster.

Arcane - 9 + 9 = 18

Divine - 2 + 9 + 1/2(18) = 20

And you would have 9th level divine spells at 19th level and 9th level arcane spells at 20th level.

Nope, doesn't work that way. Your caster level does,indeed, get the bonus you describe. But that has no bearing on spells per day, or what spell levels you can or cannot cast. Per Table 5-2, that is determined solely by the Apostle's Class Levels. So you have to be an Apostle(9) to have access to 9th level divine spells, at all.

Further ... you do not get to double-dip the Theurge spellcasting increases, by counting it fully towards Apostle, and (via that caster level bonus) half of it again. That is a blatant attempt to abuse the rules. And nothing but.

Granted, because the Apostle is fast-tracked to 9th level spells, you do still have them in your example, but it does not work the way you describe. To correct your example of a Wiz(Sorc) 9 / Apostle 2 / Theurge 9:

Arcane: 9 + 9 = 18
Divine : 2 + 9 = 11; bonus of (9/2=) 4, for effective 15.

 

[gfunk]

Pax,

Allow me to respectfully disagree. I will try to put forward my own argument.

Nope, doesn't work that way. Your caster level does,indeed, get the bonus you describe. But that has no bearing on spells per day, or what spell levels you can or cannot cast.

DMG, p. 191, column 1, under Class Features of Mystic Theurge

"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane casting spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level, accordingly." [emphasis mine]

Per Table 5-2, that is determined solely by the Apostle's Class Levels. So you have to be an Apostle(9) to have access to 9th level divine spells, at all.

Table 5-2 in the BoED is broken into Spells per Day and Special. As you advanced in Mystic Theurge you would gain Spells per Day as stated in the DMG. You would not, however, get further abilities in the special category such as improved turning and the ability to censure fiends.

Further ... you do not get to double-dip . . .

Double-dipped, double-fried, ROLL TIDE!!
(sorry, inside joke, Joachim will understand)

the Theurge spellcasting increases, by counting it fully towards Apostle, and (via that caster level bonus) half of it again.

And why not? Because you say so?

That is a blatant attempt to abuse the rules. And nothing but.

Blatant is such an ugly word. I would call it an "elegant" abuse of the rules.

For these reasons I would agree with Joachim's analysis.

 

[Pax]

Pax,

Allow me to respectfully disagree. I will try to put forward my own argument.

Okay.

DMG, p. 191, column 1, under Class Features of Mystic Theurge

"This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane casting spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level, accordingly." [emphasis mine]

Yes. And that class is what I based my argument on. You see, WOTC has made the same argument about double-dipping the Theurge levels as I did, albeit in reference to other Prestige Classes giving bonus spellcasting levels.

Table 5-2 in the BoED is broken into Spells per Day and Special. As you advanced in Mystic Theurge you would gain Spells per Day as stated in the DMG. You would not, however, get further abilities in the special category such as improved turning and the ability to censure fiends.

That doesn't eliminate the fact that "caster level" is not what determines your spells per day. For example, the Spell Power ability (i.e. Archmage and Red Wizard); that does increase your caster level, but does not increase your spells per day, nor spells known.

The bonus given by the Apostle is, IMO, not supposed to produce more-advanced spellcasting in terms of spells castable per day. It is meant to aid in penetrating SR, and extending durations, ranges, numbers of targets, etc.

And why not? Because you say so?

Try, "because to interpret it in any other way is unbalanced, to a degree detrimental to overall gameplay."

And because it mirrors WOTC's rulings regarding Mystic Theurge and classes which give bonus caster levels.

Blatant is such an ugly word. I would call it an "elegant" abuse of the rules.

No abuse is elegant. Occasionally creative perhaps -- but this time isn't creative. It is simply an abuse, and it's a very blatant one; it relies on misinterpreting and misapplying a rule in a manner that is unwarrantedly beneficial to the Apostle.

For these reasons I would agree with Joachim's analysis.

Joachim isn't interpreting anythign in a correct manner. If that sort of ... "interpretation" ... were raised by a player at my table, I'd be strongly inclined to call it nothing less than cheating.

 

[Michael Tree]

That's a really nice idea. The downside is you've picked the two casting classes that get the most non-spell abilities. Druid loses all the better wildshape forms, which is a hit.

There is a great prestige class in Dragon #311 that is essentially a MT specifically designed for druid/bards. It's a 5-level class but could easily be altered into a 10 level class.

 

[gfunk]

Yes. And that class is what I based my argument on. You see, WOTC has made the same argument about double-dipping the Theurge levels as I did, albeit in reference to other Prestige Classes giving bonus spellcasting levels . . .

. . . And because it mirrors WOTC's rulings regarding Mystic Theurge and classes which give bonus caster levels.

I assume you are talking about the Ur-Priest in the BoVD. Could you please cite a reference for this ruling by WotC?

Thanks.

 

[Pax]

I assume you are talking about the Ur-Priest in the BoVD. Could you please cite a reference for this ruling by WotC?

Thanks.

I'm talkng about EVERY prestige class that gives "+1 existing class" for spellcasting.

Example: Wizard(3)/Cleric(3)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Elemental Savant(whatever). The Savant's "+1 existing class" spellcasting bonus is not added to the Theurge spellcasting; it's added to the Wizard levels only.

And I don't have the reference to hand, because I'm disinclined to go hunting for it for nigh on forever and a day, sorry. Look around, check out the WOTC site and boards, I'm sure it's in there ... somewhere.

 

[Salthorae]

It wouldn't be 30th level, more like 22nd... Apostle casts as Apostle level + 1/2 other casting levels. As you gain Mystic Theurge levels, you gain levels of Sorc/Wizard as well. For a Wiz(Sorc) 9 / Apostle 2 / Theurge 9 you would have 18 levels of Arcane caster and 20 levels of Divine caster.

Arcane - 9 + 9 = 18

Divine - 2 + 9 + 1/2(18) = 20

And you would have 9th level divine spells at 19th level and 9th level arcane spells at 20th level.

This is an interesting argument you guys have going here, one I like because I'm about to make a Mystic Theurge in my campaign. I would like to point out a few things here:

1- Apostle does not "cast as a Apostle level +1/2 other casting levels." It's "To determine the caster level of an aposlte add the apostle levels to 1/2 his caster levels in the spellcasting classes" (p.52 BoED)-- which is used for determining things such as overcoming spell resistance, not for spells/day so the above equation would indeed be

Divine - 2 + 9 = 11 (effective 15).....HOWEVER HOWEVER

2- Mystic Theurge adds to ANY ONE arcane and ANY ONE divine spellcasting classes. Because Apostle of Peace in this example is ONLY divine spellcasting class, it means that:

Divine - 2 + 9 = 11 (Apostle of Peace levels for spellcasting)

Thus you are both right. You get 9th level arcane, AND 9th level divine spells because you are effectively an 11th level Apostle of Peace as far as spellcasting is concerned...

All of this is off topic though, because the original topic is different types of Mystic Theurge classes.

I myself would NOT go with Ranger/Bard/Mystic Theurge because you lose out on all the cool ranger and bard abilities to get only their respective meager spellcasting abilities.

A cool combination I would like to see however would be the Wizard/Druid/Mystic Theurge...get some armor with the wild ability, or even "shapechanging" from Oriental Adventures, get some wild shape ability as a 5th level druid, get some really nice offensive spells from both druid and wizard....

 

[Joachim]

I'm talkng about EVERY prestige class that gives "+1 existing class" for spellcasting.

Example: Wizard(3)/Cleric(3)/Mystic Theurge(10)/Elemental Savant(whatever). The Savant's "+1 existing class" spellcasting bonus is not added to the Theurge spellcasting; it's added to the Wizard levels only.

And I don't have the reference to hand, because I'm disinclined to go hunting for it for nigh on forever and a day, sorry. Look around, check out the WOTC site and boards, I'm sure it's in there ... somewhere.

Wow...I leave the boards for a few days to get excoriated. I think that I have been misunderstood. The caster level that I was discussing for the Apostle of Peace was _not_ for the purpose of gaining spells per day but rather to determine effectiveness of said spells (damage, against SR, etc.).

As far as how I am incorrectly "interpreting" something, I am merely "reading" what it says. If I am a 9/9 Sorc/Theurge, then I am an 18th level arcane caster. If I am a 2/9 Apostle/Theurge, then I am an 11th level divine caster +1/2 my casting level in other caster classes. Ergo 11 + 1/2(18) = 20th.

I am simply reading the rules and doing the addition here. Does it sound unbalanced? Yes. Is it an abuse of the rules? Maybe, depending on the style of game you play. I was responding to the question, which was to give a non-traditional Theurge combo.

If you disagree with this and thus disallow the 1.5x addition of the Theurge, that is between your DM and your gaming group. Similarly, if you allow this, that between your DM and your gaming group. Period.

 

[RigaMortus]

What book is the Apostle in (I assume Exalted Deeds?)? And what are the requirements to get into this class?

 

[Salthorae]

What book is the Apostle in (I assume Exalted Deeds?)? And what are the requirements to get into this class?

Yeah, it's PrC in Book of Exalted Deeds. Pre-req's are mostly skills, don't have my books with me right now, but I KNOW that you must have four feats for it:

Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Non-violence, Vow of Peace.