Nontraditional Mystic Theurge combo...

[Scion]

wow.. with FOUR feats required and the prereq's being mainly skills I'd have to say that this may be a pretty rough prc to get into Which would make it worth a pretty good amount of power. Especially with the vow of poverty which, while nice, does kill a pretty interesting part of magic users.

 

[Pax]

No, it's child's play to qualify for.

Vow of Poverty gives you bonus [exalted] feats -- one at every even-numbered level. And Vows are all [exalted] feats.

Take a human:

Race Sacred Vow
Cha 1 Vow of Poverty
Vow 1 Vow of Nonviolence
Vow 2 Vow of Peace

At this point, I need only 6 ranks of Diplomacy, 10 ranks of Concentration, and a base Will save of +5. Oh, and I need to have a Good alignment.

So, while you'll be a 7th-level something before you can be an Apostle of Peace, it's ridiculously easy to achieve. Overall, you'd have the following feat opportunities as a Something(7)/Apostle(1):

Race Sacred Vow
Cha 1 Vow of Poverty
Vow 1 Vow of Nonviolence
Vow 2 Vow of Peace
Cha 3 ...
Vow 4 ... exalted
Cha 6 ...
Vow 6 ... exalted
Vow 8 ... exalted

Sick, isn't it?

 

[Scion]

I dont have the book so didnt know that one feat granted more.

Still though, only 2 skills isnt major, I was thinking that it required those four feats and 6 - 8 different skills with 6 - 10 ranks each.

Will have to check out the book sometime. Have a good one all

 

[gfunk]

Sick, isn't it?

Re: the AoP/MT class combo

You must realize, of course, that your spell selection will be extremely limited by default. As per the Vow of Peace guidelines you may not inflict lethal damage, ability damage or drain, or spells that cause death on any living creature.

You also cannot use spells to simply render your foes weaker so that your allies can kill them. For example, Confusion has immediate potential to cause damage b/c a confused foe could turn on his own buddies and cause lethal damage. You cannot even Hold foes so that your friends can coup-de-grace them. Both of the above would cause you to irrevocably lose the benefits of your vow.

Therefore, the spells that remain either allow you to (a) buff/heal your allies or yourself and (b) contain your foes without hurting them or putting them in grave danger. For example, spells like Resilient Sphere and Yoke of Mercy would fit into this category.

My point is, simply, that from a powergaming perspective the AoP/MT combo isn't what it appears on paper. If you compare it to an Ur-Priest/MT combo then, I think, you will gain some perspective.

 

[Pax]

Re: the AoP/MT class combo

You must realize, of course, that your spell selection will be extremely limited by default. As per the Vow of Peace guidelines you may not inflict lethal damage, ability damage or drain, or spells that cause death on any living creature.

There are feats to deal with that. Subdual Substitution would become a way of life for you. ^_^

You cannot even Hold foes so that your friends can coup-de-grace them. Both of the above would cause you to irrevocably lose the benefits of your vow.

Unless you knew your friends respected your vows, and would never CDG with lethal damage (as opposed to just K.O.'ing them).

And against Undead, the kid gloves can come off -- vow of Peace les you slam undead all you want. Constructs too, for that matter; they aren't ALIVE, they're just magical machines.

Therefore, the spells that remain either allow you to (a) buff/heal your allies or yourself and (b) contain your foes without hurting them or putting them in grave danger. For example, spells like Resilient Sphere and Yoke of Mercy would fit into this category.

Constricting Chains would also fit. Nonlethal Damage doesn't violate the Vow of Peace, nor the Vow of Nonviolence. IOW, you can beat someone into unconsciousness ... as long as you're reasonably sure they'll live through the experience. ^_^

My point is, simply, that from a powergaming perspective the AoP/MT combo isn't what it appears on paper. If you compare it to an Ur-Priest/MT combo then, I think, you will gain some perspective.

It is, and it isn't. You have to, as a player, REALLY try hard to thnk of ways to be effective in the many inevitable combats that will arise, other than injuring the enemy, or helping your allies hurt them.

And FWIW ... I'd tend to think that making your allies stronger in combat would be "helping them injure others", unless you could extract a solemn (and reliable) oath from them to "do no harm" (IOW, attack to subdue). ^_^ Thus, Bull's Strength wouldn't be a good idea.

OTOH, End to Strife would be a GRAND spell to cast. ^_^ "Go ahead, stick your knife into me, and feel your just punishment!"