Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

What would you see are the tradeoffs in taking such an approach?
When I asked a similar question up thread, it seemed right to question what lense that is to be evaluated through? What did you have in mind here? What would you see as possible tradeoffs (of @Imaro's two approaches), for a mode of play or game you prefer?

For example, I feel it would be better to be more even-handed in Torchbearer due inter alia to the relationship between making tests and advancing the grind.
 
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@FrogReaver

I am not offended. Just frustrated,
Sorry, frustration then.
as per my prediction that I reiterated. Because these conversations about how (say) Apocalypse World, or Burning Wheel, or DitV, or whatever other non-D&D-adjacent system, works seem to keep happening again, and again, with the same assumptions being made that apply the D&D procedures as if they are normative for RPGing per se.
I compared your details about AW to what I know about BitD. I'm not sure where D&D is coming into this part of the conversation. Nor do I know what else I can do to convince you that I wasn't doing any of what you are talking about here. Maybe I can't?

The use of the word "proper" implies that some other actions are "improper". But there is nothing improper about an Apocalypse World player declaring an action for their PC that doesn't trigger a player-side move.
Maybe it will help if I elaborate on what I meant. I get why you see it the way you are (and thus why I've offered to stop using the term), but the way you see it is not how I meant it. Proper also means 'acceptable'. My intent was that 'improper action' = 'action unacceptable for causing a player side move'. No where was I intending to make a value judgement about any AW play or any process of play in AW. I'm not arguing that we keep using the term, just trying to provide some context as to why I initially did.

Note: I'm a bit frustrated too at this point, because unless you simply don't believe me, why wasn't apologizing, offering to use the term of your choice, and explaining none of this was my intent enough to move the conversation forward?



Here are the triggers for the basic player-side moves in Apocalypse World: doing something under fire, or digging in to endure fire; going aggro on someone; trying to seize something by force; trying to seduce or manipulate someone, using leverage (a threat, promise, etc); reading a charged situation; reading a person in a charged interaction; opening your brain to the world’s psychic maelstrom.

It's fairly obvious that there is a range of things - in practical terms, an infinite range - that a person in Apocalypse World might do that does not fall under any of those descriptions. And not just stuff like pulling on their socks and tying their shoe laces in the morning. They might open a door to see what's behind it; they might look at the fuel gauge of their car; they might ask the hardholder if she will lend them a gun and ammunition; they might try and open a tin of peaches to share with a friend.

As per my quote not too far upthread (from p 109 of the rulebook),

Apocalypse World divvies the conversation up in a strict and pretty traditional way. The players’ job is to say what their characters say and undertake to do, first and exclusively; to say what their characters think, feel and remember, also exclusively; and to answer your questions about their characters’ lives and surroundings. Your job as MC [=GM] is to say everything else: everything about the world, and what everyone in the whole damned world says and does except the players’ characters.​

So when the player says "I pull out my knife and open the tin of peaches", it is the GM's job to say what happens. How does the GM do that? The GM makes a move, in accordance with the principles and the agenda. To quote from pp 108-9,

AGENDA
• Make Apocalypse World seem real.
• Make the players’ characters’ lives not boring.
• Play to find out what happens.
Everything you say, you should do it to accomplish these three, and no other. . . .​
ALWAYS SAY
• What the principles demand (as follow).
• What the rules demand.
• What your prep demands.
• What honesty demands.

Here are the principles - I'm quoting from p 110, but am grouping them together by the agenda item they tend to support:

• Address yourself to the characters, not the players.​
• Name everyone, make everyone human.​
• Make your move, but misdirect.​
• Make your move, but never speak its name.​
• Think offscreen too.​

"Misdirection" here is clearly explained (pp 110-1):

the real reason why you choose a move exists in the real world. Somebody has her character go someplace new, somebody misses a roll, somebody hits a roll that calls for you to answer, everybody’s looking to you to say something, so you choose a move to make. Real-world reasons. However, misdirect: pretend that you’re making your move for reasons entirely within the game’s fiction instead.​

This ensures (i) that a move always follows from the fiction, and (ii) together with the other principles, it makes Apocalypse World seem real.

More principles:

• Barf forth apocalyptica.​
• Look through crosshairs.​
• Respond with [trouble] and intermittent rewards.​
• Be a fan of the players’ characters.​

These principles, when followed, ensure that the character's lives are not boring.

Finally, there are these two principles:

• Ask provocative questions and build on the answers.​
• Sometimes, disclaim decision-making.​

These are important means of playing to find out what happens.

Note that the prep that is referred to is not map-and-key. It begins during and continues after the first session, as per pp 130, 132 and 136:

Fill up your 1st session worksheet. List the players’ characters in the center circle. Think of the space around them as a map,​
but with scarcity and lack instead of cardinal directions. As you name NPCs, place them on the map around the PCs, according to the fundamental scarcity that makes them a threat to the PCs. . . .​
Listing each threat’s available resources will give you insight into who they are, what they need, and what they can do to get it. It’s especially useful to give some threats resources that the PCs need but don’t have. Now go back over it all. Pull it into its pieces. Solidify them into threats, following the rules [for fronts] . . .​
Take these solid threats and build them up into fronts. . . .​
A front has some apparently mechanical components, but it’s fundamentally conceptual, not mechanical. The purpose of your prep is to give you interesting things to say. As MC you’re going to be playing your fronts, playing your threats, but that doesn’t mean anything mechanical. It means saying what they do. It means offering opportunities to the players to have their characters do interesting things, and it means responding in interesting ways to what the players have their characters do.​

So when the player says (as their PC) "I pull out my knife and open the tin of peaches", the GM doesn't decide what happens by consulting a random-tin-contents chart (as might be the case in, say Gamma World or even Twilight 2000). Nor does the GM consult any notes about what are in the tin. Nor does the GM call for a dice roll from the player (as might happen in, say, Cyberspace) with a chance of blunting the knife or spilling the contents.

The GM chooses a move that will best conform to the principles and agenda I've set out above. Suppose that the PC in a place that the GM, building out threats and fronts from the play of the first session, has established as the home of a gang of NPCs led by a "warlord" (see p 138). Perhaps, then, the GM decides to have the warlord "Make a show of force" (p 138) and so (misdirecting, and never speaking the name of their move) tells the player "You open the tin. As you start to eat, you hear a gun shot and a bullet ricochets off the rock next to you. What do you do?" This makes the character's life not boring. It honours prep, and involves thinking offscreen (what does the gang think about interlopers with nice peaches!?). It certainly is responding with "trouble" (Vincent Baker uses a different noun starting with "f" and ending with "ery"). And it puts the PC in a spot (a non-threat-specific GM move: pp 116, 119).

Suppose, rather, that the PC is at home. And suppose that the GM regards this as something of an opportunity - it's already established that things are afoot in the neighbourhood! - and so decides to make a slightly harder move. Then maybe the GM responds "As you're opening the tin, there's a sudden pounding on your door. You look up, and in the process nearly nick yourself with your knife. Do you keep hold of the can - in which case take 1 harm (ap) as the knife cuts your hand. Or do you spill the contents as you drop what you're holding?" The GM, here, is making the character's life not boring. And looking through crosshairs (at the peaches, and at the character). And - while misdirecting and not speaking the name of their move - is announcing off-screen badness (ie the pounding on the door) and telling the possible consequences (of keeping hold of the tin) and asking.

In either case the player says something about what their PC does. In the first case, it seems there's a good chance it will involve acting under fire. But maybe the player has their character read the situation first? In the second case that would also be an option. But maybe the player just says "F*** it! I open the door" - and that doesn't trigger a player-side move, and so now the GM makes another move, applying the same methodology to work out what that move should be.

The methodology is completely different from map-and-key, or from anything found in any D&D module or rulebook that I know of. (Including 4e D&D.)

Here's another way to look at it:

When is a conflict resolved? When the situation in which it arises is changed irrevocably. What do we call an irrevocable change in the situation, in AW? That's a hard move. So what the play procedure of AW is designed to do is to produce rising action - more GM soft moves, introducing more tension and more complication - until the situation changes irrevocably: either the player succeeds on a player-side move and makes an irrevocable change (someone agrees to do what the PC wants, or is removed by threat or force from the PC's way, or the PC gets out of the difficult situation); or the GM is authorised to make a hard move, and declares an irrevocable change in the situation.

The GM has authority over the pacing of this, by choosing what soft moves to make, and the ways in which they step up the pressure in the situation. The player has authority over it, too, by choosing what to say when the GM asks 'What do you do?", which includes choosing whether to declare an action that will enliven a player-side move and thus create the possibility of resolution one way or another.

If the player - as in my warehouse example, and my peaches example - chooses not to make a player-side move, that is not "improper" or degenerate in any fashion. It is, among other things, a choice to prolong the rising action. When the GM responds with (say) "A guard comes up to you to ask you your business" that's not "illegitimate" either (contra @Lanefan). That is the GM doing their job, of stepping up the pressure in the situation.

The mark of a good PbtA game - and AW is a good PbtA game - is that the elements of the playbooks, the way the first session works, the outlines for fronts and threats, and the design of the player-side moves, all combine to mean that sooner or later a player will make a player-side move and hence will initiate the process of resolving the conflict. This is why, when Vincent Baker says "there are no status quos in Apocalypse World" (pp 112, 114, 125, 228) he is not giving an instruction to the GM (or the players) - rather, he is observing what will happen if the game is played as the rulebook actually sets it out.
I'm sure you are trying to be helpful here, but it does frustrate me that you think there's some need to go over the absolute basics because you presumably think I'm not following when you talked about the game the first time.
 

I suspect that is because while players do often have conversations in their real lives - even ones where they negotiate, bluff, lie, attempt to persuade - they do not wear armour and hack at one another with actual swords and axes and so forth, sustaining real injuries and death. And while it is reasonable to hold an actual conversation at the table, it is less convenient to get dressed up and go at it in anything close to actual combat each time they want to resolve combat with lessened use of dice. (Not to mention the demands that would put on DM!)
There are many ways of resolving an imaginary combat besides LARPing and wargaming. Many of which might be more convivial to some players.
 

There are many ways of resolving an imaginary combat besides LARPing and wargaming. Many of which might be more convivial to some players.
So the question would be something like
  1. Given a group allows player A to use dice to determine what happens next in a situation, and player B to use speech acts
  2. What kinds of situations does that group allow that to apply to? What is their rubric?
I've suggested that their rubric could include fidelity and convenience. Under fidelity, I suppose that speech acts are very like speech acts. Suppose the PCs got involved in a game of Craps? Rolling dice is very like rolling dice, so it would fit, too. In both these examples, there is no inconvenience in admitting them into play that ordinarily employs them. I suggested that - were fidelity a group's rubric - other ways of resolving imaginary combat would not suit.

On the other hand, it seems easy to just drop the requirement for fidelity. Someone raised a question that relates to this in another thread. They wanted to know to what extent groups allow player strategy to be decisive over combat? I have many times observed RPG groups allowing player descriptions of how they approach combat to impact the combat, but I think the question here goes beyond that.

I suppose then I would call attention to the centrality of combat in the game. In D&D, almost everything is evaluated in terms of its impact on combat. A great example is Wedding. "You touch adult humanoids willing to be bonded together in marriage. For the next 7 days, each target gains a +2 bonus to AC while they are within 30 feet of each other. A creature can benefit from this rite again only if widowed." So typically the group is playing with an expectation that they are - in large part - there for the combat game play. Additionally, combat doesn't typically skirt player lines and veils (D&D combat is bland in its narration of injury etc.) It's so at odds with day-to-day life that players typically don't have any fears attached to it: it is easy to put at one remove from themselves. No one supposes any actual combat is being had when combat is played out in D&D, but pretend speech acts remain speech acts... hence my suggestion that fidelity could be part of the rubric.
 
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Maybe it will help if I elaborate on what I meant. I get why you see it the way you are (and thus why I've offered to stop using the term), but the way you see it is not how I meant it. Proper also means 'acceptable'. My intent was that 'improper action' = 'action unacceptable for causing a player side move'. No where was I intending to make a value judgement about any AW play or any process of play in AW. I'm not arguing that we keep using the term, just trying to provide some context as to why I initially did.

Note: I'm a bit frustrated too at this point, because unless you simply don't believe me, why wasn't apologizing, offering to use the term of your choice, and explaining none of this was my intent enough to move the conversation forward?
@FrogReaver I believe @pemerton was making a purely technical or logical statement there.

Suppose I have the set P() and this set doesn't contain everything, so there must be a matching set not-P(). I believe @pemerton is simply pointing out that regardless of whether not-P complies or doesn't comply with propriety in some other game, in AW not-P complies.

That comes across to me as containing no umbrage (as well as being uncontentious!) It fits my own belief that any such evaluations are rightly made within each paradigm (in this case, within PbtA.)
 

When I asked a similar question up thread, it seemed right to question what lense that is to be evaluated through? What did you have in mind here? What would you see as possible tradeoffs (of @Imaro's two approaches), for a mode of play or game you prefer?

For example, I feel it would be better to be more even-handed in Torchbearer due inter alia to the relationship between making tests and advancing the grind.
At the very least, it seems like an invitation for the person to be self-critical and apply the critical lens of their choice.
 

At the very least, it seems like an invitation for the person to be self-critical and apply the critical lens of their choice.
They've given their lense. They situate this squarely within D&D and strictly according to their personal taste. For them, there is likely no tradeoff. I think it would be more through other lenses that we will see tradeoffs (or differences.)

I feel that we have run into this subtle problem here, and in other threads. It is hard to accept that an approach has no tradeoff (for the poster of that approach) because, through lenses we can't rid ourselves of, we notice tradeoffs (or at least, differences.) Despite that, situated within some stated paradigm (defined in part by a set of purposes), there really can be no tradeoff.

Tradeoffs only come into view in cases like this, when the viewpoint is cranked out to encompass multiple paradigms, and then one can speak of a tradeoff associated with a paradigm (perforce, cranking the viewpoint back in.)
 
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They've given their lense.
They've given an explanation for the perceived positive outcomes of their choice, but not necessarily the lens for evaluating what trade-offs may be involved in that choice.

I feel that we have run into this subtle problem here, and in other threads. It can feel hard to accept that an approach has no downside (for the poster of that approach) because, through lenses we can't rid ourselves of, we notice downsides (or at least, differences.)
I also feel that we are running into the subtle problem again of you implying too much here about me and others in your attempts to moralize down to us. IMHO, asking someone if they see any tradeoffs is not the same as not accepting that an approach has no downside or tradeoffs.
 
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They've given an explanation for the perceived positive outcomes of their choice, but not necessarily the lens for evaluating what trade-offs may be involved that choice.
I felt they were very clear. The paradigm is the poster's personal taste within play of D&D. Once we accept that within their paradigm their approach may have no tradeofs, the question here seems to be asking them to speculate what the tradeoffs might be in some other or modified paradigm? I do not see why @Imaro should be responsible for taking on that work for the benefit of anyone who wants it done. They might, of course, but to say they were not clear about their lense - to me - is to ignore what they did say.

I usually differ from both of the major sides in this argument as I prefer the 5e approach and it gets me accused of everything from claiming 5e can do everything to arguing in bad faith but I like what I like.
Of course, @Imaro is best placed to say what their intent was with those statements.

I also feel that we are running into the subtle problem again of you implying too much here about me and others in your attempts to moralize down to us. IMHO, asking someone if they see any tradeoffs is not the same as not accepting that an approach has no downside or tradeoffs.
To be clear here, I am not moralising. I'm not offering any judgement and I don't ascribe any position to you. Although it strikes me to ask what your purpose is in pursuing the question to @Imaro? (EDIT Only for the sake of understanding more about that. Not to in some way stitch you up! I am genuinely trying to understand what justifies an intuition that there should be tradeoffs.)

Primarily I am attempting explanation. In debates I see some folk insist that it must be possible to evaluate X to come at some cost, while some other folk insist that X comes at no cost to them. Within the context of talking about RPG, I want to figure out what justifies those contrasting positions. I've mooted (and will not doubt go on mooting) that it is to do with evaluation of RPG features being something that only makes sense within paradigms.
 
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I felt they were very clear. The paradigm is the posters personal taste within play of D&D. The question here seems to be saying something like - suppose for the sake of argument you were to choose a different paradigm, can you speculate what the tradeoffs might be? I do not see why @Imaro should be responsible for taking on that work for the benefit of anyone who wants it done. They might, of course, but to say they were not clear about their lense - for me - is to ignore what they did say.
They were clear about their choice. I am not questioning that choice or their preference. I understand that they like what they like. However, I also thought that @Campbell was very clear and polite in asking them if they saw any tradeoffs to their choice. There was nothing wrong about that question, and it was done respectfully.

I may prefer some approaches over others. I may be clear about what approach I prefer and can tell you why I prefer them. But I can still recognize that there are potential trade-offs for the approach that I pick, maybe even also within my respective paradigm(s) of play.
 

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