Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

With respect, this will not be the basis of a healthy conversation, at least on a message board like this with largely anonymous participants. It basically deauthorizes the plurality of participants in the conversations. Meaning, if someone plays 8 sessions of BitD, their experiences can be overwritten by someone who has played 80 sessions, deciding from the outside what experience the former did or did not have with a game. This is problematic enough, but then we also have different rules of conversation for 5e, where someone who has played no sessions of 5e can purport to speak authoritatively about it to those who have played 100+ sessions.

Granted, I think both situations (speaking about a game one has not played a lot or speaking to someone who has not played a lot of a game) can be mitigated with a certain amount of conversational grace and open curiosity.

This post is exactly why I always end up writing titanic sieges of word count that ends up overburdened by clarifying and caveating parentheticals.

Do you disagree with any of the below:

* Advice on genre conceits and advice saying “have fun” or “bring snacks” and advice on tailoring is a very different beast than intricate instruction on combat encounter budgeting (both the procedure and the dynamics of using different roles in concert with each other) in D&D?

* When something is totally foreign to you (therefore you can’t draw upon adjacent experience, related expertise, or cognitive/physical conditioning that shares overlap), your 4th attempt is not going to yield the same reservoir of understanding as your 40th attempt?

* it can’t both be feature and bug of 5e (the nostalgia edition) to not require assimilation of a vast, foreign text of rules to discuss play coherently and run a game! The game’s (5e) design was literally (and overtly…the designers stated it plainly) designed with this as a/the core, undergirding tenet (effectively a rebuke of 4e).


If you agree with all 3 of the above…why are you calling me out like this (and basically repurposing my words above…which share a layered meaning and multiple usage…in order to put into affect this call out)?
 

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Can we use Vampire: The Masquerade first edition? Will anyone get up in arms if people use that game for comparative purposes?
I don't think anyone would be up in arms. But you're going to get a lot of befuddled looks from people who have never played a game that was released 32 years ago and don't understand the basis of such comparisons.

Me: Okay, so you know how in Vampire you have different clans?
New Player: My parents hadn't even met when that game came out.
Me: Okay, so you know how you have Mental, Physical, and Social attributes in Vampire?
New Player: Dude, I'm 20! I don't even know anyone who owns that game. Why not compare it to D&D? Literally everyone in the world has played it!

I don't mind using D&D and the lingua franca of the gaming world. And even if I did mind, what's the point of getting upset? The reality is what it is.
 

I don't mind using D&D and the lingua franca of the gaming world. And even if I did mind, what's the point of getting upset? The reality is what it is.
I think there's a value to this over and above trying to do a criticism. When folks (potential players) have asked me about other games, they often ask "Is it like D&D?" and the answer - if you want to softly softly catchy monkey - is always an enthusiastic "Yes!"
 

I don't think anyone would be up in arms. But you're going to get a lot of befuddled looks from people who have never played a game that was released 32 years ago and don't understand the basis of such comparisons.

Me: Okay, so you know how in Vampire you have different clans?
New Player: My parents hadn't even met when that game came out.
Me: Okay, so you know how you have Mental, Physical, and Social attributes in Vampire?
New Player: Dude, I'm 20! I don't even know anyone who owns that game. Why not compare it to D&D? Literally everyone in the world has played it!

I don't mind using D&D and the lingua franca of the gaming world. And even if I did mind, what's the point of getting upset? The reality is what it is.

I think perhaps you’re underestimating the average age around here, but I was mostly kidding anyway!

As for your second point, I don’t know what the point of getting upset is, just that it seems to happen a lot.
 
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* it can’t both be feature and bug of 5e (the nostalgia edition) to not require assimilation of a vast, foreign text of rules to discuss play coherently and run a game! The game’s (5e) design was literally (and overtly…the designers stated it plainly) designed with this as a/the core, undergirding tenet (effectively a rebuke of 4e).

Can we separate marketing in relation to the loudest complaints (whether correct or incorrect) of what came before... a game that was too rigid and structured (D&D 4e)... with what past systems, and 5e were/are really like? Are you honestly claiming Basic D&D, AD&D or 3.x were games where the text actually treated rules as vague or minimized them while promoting rulings in their stead? I'd argue 5e is the edition that was built to cater to how many people actually utilized those rules sets vs. what those previous editions systems actually were and prescribed.
 
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Do you disagree with any of the below:

* Advice on genre conceits and advice saying “have fun” or “bring snacks” and advice on tailoring is a very different beast than intricate instruction on combat encounter budgeting (both the procedure and the dynamics of using different roles in concert with each other) in D&D?

* When something is totally foreign to you (therefore you can’t draw upon adjacent experience, related expertise, or cognitive/physical conditioning that shares overlap), your 4th attempt is not going to yield the same reservoir of understanding as your 40th attempt?

* it can’t both be feature and bug of 5e (the nostalgia edition) to not require assimilation of a vast, foreign text of rules to discuss play coherently and run a game! The game’s (5e) design was literally (and overtly…the designers stated it plainly) designed with this as a/the core, undergirding tenet (effectively a rebuke of 4e).


If you agree with all 3 of the above…why are you calling me out like this (and basically repurposing my words above…which share a layered meaning and multiple usage…in order to put into affect this call out)?

I'm not quite getting at why these three points are of particular emphasis, but I suppose they all speak to the value of experience and expertise. Absolutely, more experience provides a different perspective. But if you start a conversation with the premise that there are only 5 or so participants who have enough experience (and the right kind of experience) to say something meaningful...well then, you end up with a conversation with only five participants, plus a bunch of people alienated by this conversation. I also don't think this perspective is inherently more valuable; indeed, some of the most interesting and enlightening comments about role playing games have come from absolute "beginners" (or, perhaps, at least those capable of having a "beginners mind.").

(btw, if I wanted to call anyone out for how they approach discussions, it would be posters who are either moderated often in these conversations or who have been outright banned).
 

Can we separate marketing in relation to the loudest complaints (whether correct or incorrect) of what came before... a game that was too rigid and structured (D&D 4e)... with what past systems, and 5e were/are really like?

No. We cannot separate marketing from design when marketing is a primary input to/directive of design.

Are you honestly claiming Basic D&D, AD&D or 3.x were games where the text actually treated rules as vague or minimized them while promoting rulings in their stead? I'd argue 5e is the edition that was built to cater to how many people actually utilized those rules sets vs. what those previous editions systems actually were and prescribed.

I don't know where you're inferring this from (a) the text you've quoted nor (b) what I've written in the last 3 or 4 posts. This "are you honestly claiming" charge is in no way connected to anything I've written. I don't understand your extrapolation or pivot or whatever is happening here.
 

How would that play out in D&D? Can the DM decide ask you to make a saving throw or die on a failed skill check? Well, yes. But there are caveats. Depending on the edition you’re playing, that kind of thing is going to be more or less normative in the play culture. I think it would be highly unusual in play with modern D&D editions, and some (if not many) players at least would view it unfairly. Their understanding is that you fail to complete the task on a failed skill check, and only disabling a trap prescribes that the trap goes off on a failed check, which is not what they were rolling.
DMG 242 supplies the same nuance in results, albeit not as elegantly. I should preface this with my view that whereas the DMG contains "optional" and "variant" rules, it also contains just rules. The basic game is given in the basic rules. A more complete game is given in the Players Handbook and Monster Manual. The whole game is given in the three core books together. DMG 237 specifies that a roll is not made unless there are consequences. I've written on that elsewhere.

In the example at hand, per 5th-edition rules failing by 5 or more topples the tank. If failure would have no consequence, one might following basic rules alone still call for a roll. Using the whole rules, one would not.
 

No. We cannot separate marketing from design when marketing is a primary input to/directive of design.

This is simply not true. Marketing is a primary input for getting a consumer to desire a product... There are plenty of products whose marketing doesn't touch on their actual design in any way.

I don't know where you're inferring this from (a) the text you've quoted nor (b) what I've written in the last 3 or 4 posts. This "are you honestly claiming" charge is in no way connected to anything I've written. I don't understand your extrapolation or pivot or whatever is happening here.
Your're the one heavily implying (if not necessarily outright stating) that one of your 3 points is since 5e is the "nostalgia" edition then experience in previous editions somehow directly translates into automatic understanding/experience/authority to speak to 5e without having actually read the 5e corebooks. If I'm incorrect in what you are trying to convey with your posts please state plainly what it is you are saying.
 

(btw, if I wanted to call anyone out for how they approach discussions, it would be posters who are either moderated often in these conversations or who have been outright banned).

Going to start with this.

The reason why I consider what you wrote a "call out" is because, whether you intended it or not, you are doing exactly what this thread is doing (and what it has done in the past...because this is like the 50 bajillionth iteration of it...and its why I called it exactly what it, and every iteration of it, is "a dog whistle of an inquisition"). You're effectively charging me with some kind of ethics violation. Like I'm responsible for "unhealthy conversation" and, by extension, the environment that unhealthy conversations persist in.

I not only don't agree with this assessment, I protest that assessment (and the assessment of the dog whistle of an inquisition that is this thread...and every one like it) in the deepest way possible.

I'm not quite getting at why these three points are of particular emphasis, but I suppose they all speak to the value of experience and expertise. Absolutely, more experience provides a different perspective. But if you start a conversation with the premise that there are only 5 or so participants who have enough experience (and the right kind of experience) to say something meaningful...well then, you end up with a conversation with only five participants, plus a bunch of people alienated by this conversation. I also don't think this perspective is inherently more valuable; indeed, some of the most interesting and enlightening comments about role playing games have come from absolute "beginners" (or, perhaps, at least those capable of having a "beginners mind.").

I put them together because they each mean different but related things:

* Within D&D rules-texts, there are varying levels of intricacy, complexity, structure (vs freeform), and necessity-of-understanding-and-following-with-impunity (lest things go awry/become unwieldy) when it comes to the advice/procedures etc.

* When it comes to games across the spectrum, there are varying levels of intricacy, complexity, structure (vs freeform), necessity-of-understanding-and-following-with-impunity (lest things go awry/become unwieldy) when it comes to the advice/procedures etc.

* Games that feature more structure vs more freeform, more intricacy and complexity vs less of both, more interlocking/integration/systematization vs more discretized/"opt-in toolkittery"/GM mediation or ruling are different beasts when it comes to both (a) the cognitive space they should persist in at large (eg, its clearly more difficult to on-ramp players of one type vs the other) and (b) the nature of the cognitive space participants at the table assume (this is not a value judgement..."nature" here is constitutive only of the quality of being rather different/drawing a stark contrast).

* At the population level (yes, there are idiosyncratic individuals who get worse the more they do something), people tend to improve from "First Exposure to Totally New Thing" to Practice/Session # 4 to Practice/Session # 40.

* People who have exposure to disciplines that have technical &/or conditioning overlap (eg gymnasts who take up climbing) will have the proverbial "leg up". They'll be able to transfer that exposure, draw from that technical expertise overlap, rely upon that mental/physical conditioning substrate shared between both to have an intrinsic understanding/capability that advantages them.

Easy personal anecdote: I took up climbing 3.33 years ago. I was not a gymnast in my youth. Gymnast translates at a ridiculous rate both cognitively and physically (for a number of reasons). However, I am an athlete broadly, I'm well-conditioned, and I've been a Brazilian Jiujitsu practitioner for 2.5 decades so I have a lot to draw upon. Regardless, a gymnast (of similar athletic profile and various physical indices) going straight to climbing will fundamentally have a "leg up" on me. They will be better than me immediately...and not by a little. Further, unless I do something extra to bridge that gap between us, it will persist and they will always be better than me.




In no way do I feel that there are a small number of participants who have something meaningful to say about games. All kinds of people have meaningful and interesting things to say. I spent the last week or so in an extremely interesting, and polite, disagreement (that disagreement persists) with someone I had never interacted before on here. They brought up a concept I had never heard of "Parasitic Game Design" and I thought it was an extremely interesting subject generally and the limits of its application specifically.

Despite our disagreements (and one of those disagreements is my assessment of their understanding of a certain sort of systemization in TTRPGs), what they had to say was absolutely meaningful and compelling (to me personally and I certainly draw the conclusion that it propelled meaningful downstream conversation).

But that doesn't happen often enough. My involvement historically in these conversations has been to attempt to offer polite course correction when I read something that is rather askew or outright, demonstrably, not correct. My course correction is likely to be more stern when that "not correct" is coming from a partisan source who is (a) clearly ideologically opposed to the thing they're saying something wrong about and especially (b) if this is the 2nd or 3rd go-around on the same subject (I give you The Edition Wars).
 

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