Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

I might agree or disagree if I could actually make heads or tails of what you just wrote.

It seems you are making this way more complicated than it is. In map and key play players rarely have enough information to make actual informed decisions.

Most decisions are made more or less blindly. That’s the point. Why does the party go over that hill or down that corridor?

To see what’s there because it might be interesting.

Heck there are more than a few play reviews I’ve seen that complain about empty room syndrome. The party is exploring the dungeon but because they are making mostly random choices, they have a fairly empty session with nothing but empty rooms.

It does happen. And it happens because of mostly random chance. Ie. guesswork.

If it is the case that the choices being made are essentially random than at least one of 3 things must be true:

1. The scenario design is terrible. Empty room syndrome is this.
2. The GM is being entirely too coy when they are describing the environment.
3. Players are not doing due diligence.

Map and key play can absolutely be done in a way that requires and reflects skill. GM play and scenario design just has to be on point.
 

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Map and key play can absolutely be done in a way that requires and reflects skill. GM play and scenario design just has to be on point.
To note though, this requires a high level of mastery by the DM.
Given that dungeons are (at least were) the go-to scenario for D&D games, @Hussar is right when he says that Most decisions are made more or less blindly and It does happen. And it happens because of mostly random chance. Ie. guesswork.
Because not many of us have mastered this skill for each and every scenario design we have made (and I am speaking for myself too).
 

To note though, this requires a high level of mastery by the DM.
Given that dungeons are (at least were) the go-to scenario for D&D games, @Hussar is right when he says that Most decisions are made more or less blindly and It does happen. And it happens because of mostly random chance. Ie. guesswork.
Because not many of us have mastered this skill for each and every scenario design we have made (and I am speaking for myself too).
It's not at all true that saying 'The corridor heading east feels really warm; the corridor heading west has ratmen droppings all around' requires a high level of DM mastery.

But it's also not true that 'we don't know what's down that corridor until we go in it' means that most decisions in the game are made blindly or randomly. Surely by far the most relevant decisions in the game are about what the characters do when they encounter whatever they encounter.
 

I might agree or disagree if I could actually make heads or tails of what you just wrote.

It seems you are making this way more complicated than it is. In map and key play players rarely have enough information to make actual informed decisions.

Most decisions are made more or less blindly. That’s the point. Why does the party go over that hill or down that corridor?

To see what’s there because it might be interesting.

Heck there are more than a few play reviews I’ve seen that complain about empty room syndrome. The party is exploring the dungeon but because they are making mostly random choices, they have a fairly empty session with nothing but empty rooms.

It does happen. And it happens because of mostly random chance. Ie. guesswork.

I guess my only contention with what you are asserting is, at what point have the PC's gathered enough information where they are no longer considered choosing blindly?

So for example I think at least a big portion of what is being characterized as map and key play has certain procedures that have grown around it that actually move it from pure random chance into the realm of what I would consider the partially unknown. I also think this not really being acknowledged or discussed as part of the process is where some of the tension around the guesswork characterization may come from.

As an example, when creating something like a West Marches game, one of the assumptions is that the player's characters will be provided with rumors and job offers which in and of themselves hint at certain truths of the game world. So a rumor might be something like... attacks by warbands of goblins on 3 caravans to the north have been reported by surviving members of the merchant houses... While there may also be a job offering available something like... 100gp offered for the return, dead or alive of the renegade necromance Khazn-Dune, last seen fleeing to the north towards the abandoned watchtowwer...

So before play even starts the PC's have some information on which to make their choices on. They are aware that goblin tribes lie to the north, and that an old watchtower, possibly inhabited by a necromancer also lies to the north. And the assumption is that amongst a full party with 4-6 characters each with 3 or 4 rumors and access to the job board they have similar information about other areas as well.

Secondly these rumors and job offerings in and of themselves offer chances (before the start of play proper) to gather more information. You want to know more about the goblin tribe attacks... go speak with the survivors... you want to know about the Watchtower speak with the town militia or a sage knowledgeable in history. You want to find out about the necromancer go speak to the patron offering the bounty and so on. I actually feel that for many this loop of kind of peeling back the onion of information layers until it's at a point where your party feels they are informed enough to tackle something is a key aspect of this type of play... though I readily admit one can end up going into a situation totally blind and/or mis-informed, but I feel that's only one of various states that players of the game can find themselves in and honestly I'm not sure in those who partake in this style of play it's necessarily considered a "failure" state..
 

It's not at all true that saying 'The corridor heading east feels really warm; the corridor heading west has ratmen droppings all around' requires a high level of DM mastery.

But it's also not true that 'we don't know what's down that corridor until we go in it' means that most decisions in the game are made blindly or randomly. Surely by far the most relevant decisions in the game are about what the characters do when they encounter whatever they encounter.

I think I agree with this on the whole, and as I said in my previous post... I don't think a party having no information, or even mis-information for some choices should be considered a failure (thought I would probably consider it a failure of the campaign if that was always the state they were in). You are just in one of the states that the game offers for that particular decision.
 

Very true! On account of implications that I expect were made evident through my question's insouciance.
Yeah, I suspected there was some implicit tongue-in-cheek there.

A heuristic that I understand from diversity and inclusivity training at work, is that it has to be up to the injured party to decide if and how they are injured. The other party has every reason to claim that no injury is being done. They have no personally-felt motive to desist as they are not directly subject to the harm. The doing of the injury may even rely on acts or views that suit them quite well. If the injured party are a minority, they often cannot rely on norms to help them (existing norms will often best support continuation of the harms.)
Which is fair, though "minority" becomes rather a more complex subject in the context of game analysis. Are ultra-old-school "High Gygaxian" heist-lovers the (a?) minority party because their style has mostly been abandoned by official D&D and tends to only get support in comparatively niche 3PP stuff? Are 4e fans the (a?) minority party because our favorite edition is so often straight-up falsely accused or totally forgotten? Are 3e fans the (a?) minority party because everyone moved on to 5e, leaving behind the few distinctive bits of 3e design? If more than one is a minority party, what happens when one uses a term another finds pejorative, do we listen to the minority struggling to get its voice heard even if that means allowing speech another minority finds mocking, or do we expect them to meet some kind of norm and thus in principle silence their voice?

(I don't think these questions have clear answers. Just noting the heuristic can quickly run into trouble when one minority group's concerns conflict with another's.)

Perhaps it's worth considering what is at stake, which is fruitful conversation. I believe the gains made by giving the offended party the opportunity to put forward labels that are neutral - even though as you say that can't be done as a simple fiat - are worth giving ground for. If giving ground seems to have a cost, then perhaps as I say there really is a burden on the other side to articulate that cost, rather than rely on the label to do that work.
Sure, it's best that we strive for an improvement. And, as you say, addressing what is lost and why, and whether that loss actually matters, is relevant. Sometimes the loss is simply evocativeness, which is a pretty weak standard. Sometimes it is like my example of "meatgrinder" above, where to take away the (relatively soft) implication of arbitrary mass slaughter would literally strip out the key thing being described about early-edition D&D (that it has high body counts, especially with the many inexperienced DMs of the day, and that most of those deaths were unavoidable, random, and empty/unsatisfactory/etc.)

By that same token, though, we can easily run into trouble in other ways. Consider, for example, if we discuss with person A, who finds label Q unacceptable because of its connotations, but supports label P. Then, later, we discuss with person B....who finds label P unacceptable because of its connotations, but supports label Q. We are definitionally stuck: we cannot use Q without angering A, who wants P; but we cannot use P without angering B, who wants Q. What are we to do? We cannot dispute either person, because they are each aggrieved parties and aggrieved parties are always right. Yet it is logically impossible to appease both without inventing new terms--and that just passes the buck. For the sake of being able to communicate without needing constant circumlocution, it would seem that we probably at some point have to consider the practical angle in addition to the need to show respect.
 

I did notice your efforts back then! I can't answer @Campbell's question, but the outcome of your efforts at least suggests one heuristic. The replacement label needs to be one proposed by those who find the existing label pejorative.

The burden rightly falls on them, and they are in the best position to know that their concerns are dissolved.
Maybe people could just explain what they mean in plain language rather than try to find jargon to shorten how much they have to type?
 

Most decisions are made more or less blindly. That’s the point. Why does the party go over that hill or down that corridor?

To see what’s there because it might be interesting.

Heck there are more than a few play reviews I’ve seen that complain about empty room syndrome. The party is exploring the dungeon but because they are making mostly random choices, they have a fairly empty session with nothing but empty rooms.

It does happen. And it happens because of mostly random chance. Ie. guesswork.
The decision may be more-or-less blind, but what's being asked? If the goal is exploring to see what's there, the term guesswork is a bad fit. I'm not "guessing" at anything, I'm exploring to find answers to "what's there?".

On the subject of connotations of guesswork - in what situations is it ever really neutral or even positive? If it's a term meant to compare with "meaningful choices" or indicates a situation where the communication between the GM and players is broken down (GM too coy), is the term itself prejudicial? Should it really be applied to situations where the players have little information but are making choices that have the potential to bring them more information (like choosing which way to go at a dungeon intersection where they have never explored before)?
 


I mean, calling play that I don't enjoy **** [expletive deleted] is pretty evocative too! But I wouldn't normally put that forward as a term of art to be used in a public-facing thread about analysing RPG techniques.

That comes across a bit disingenuous. They're not using the term just to show displeasure; they're using it to show what the source of the displeasure is and its nature. I'm not sure any way of doing that isn't going to be negative, because its an expression of a negative impact on them, but the formulation at hand is not intrinsically insulting, its just an indication that it feels one way to a group of people that the people who enjoy the just-in-time element don't feel. I'm not sure any other term they'd be able to use that actually conveys that feeling would be appreciated any more.

(And yes, I do think there are terms to express the reaction of people who dislike the top down or rigid nature of map-and-key that would use that would be on the same level. Personally, I think the objection to map-and-key is the sign of perhaps over-sensitivity here, so I don't see them as exactly parallel, since one is explicitly critical and the other isn't; I think map-and-key and just-in-time are actual parallels. But that doesn't mean I don't think "Shroedinger's X" doesn't have a use in the discussion; its just that whatever counterpart it would have doesn't get much use because the people involved with just-in-time systems are also people who play map-and-key systems, in some cases frequently, so map-and-key, while it doesn't necessarily serve all their needs, is not actively offputting (apparently; there may be people here who participate who have that view but have not expressed it where I've seen it)).

Edit: On reading Ezekial's post above, I think the actual parallel to "Shroedinger's X" is "Mother May I".
 
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