Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

[Lanefan]

If they're on pedestals, it's because they took the time to put their ideas out there for discussion.

I'm referring to their names getting called out as appeals to authority, as if their knowledge or views are somehow superior just because they're out there on public view - that's the unjustified pedestal.

I agree with you that there are likely lots of knowledgeable people who have interesting things to say about RPGs, but we're kind of limited to taking about the work of people who are willing to share their ideas. If someone's built a better faucet and keeps the design to themself, what am I going to do with that?

What someone else built doesn't matter, other than maybe as a comparitive example. I'm interested in hearing about your designs for a faucet, whether you've in fact built it yet or not, as in my view your designs and thoughts have the same potential to be great (or awful, or somewhere in between) as do those of anyone else including my own and including those who have already put their designs and thoughts out there.

 

[pemerton]

I'm referring to their names getting called out as appeals to authority, as if their knowledge or views are somehow superior just because they're out there on public view - that's the unjustified pedestal.

Vincent Baker invented In A Wicked Age, Dogs in the Vineyard and Apocalypse World. The idea that he doesn't know anything more than me about RPG design, and has nothing more useful to say about it than I do, is just silly.

Does anyone make the parallel assertion about other fields of technical endeavour?

 

[Emoshin]

Au contraire, mon ami!

Some new perspective and fresh thoughts could do us all some good - jump right in!

Very much appreciate that!

However, I'm 95% sure right now that I am just passing through and probably won't last a week here.

To use the previous metaphor, I see this house, full of interesting people passionate about a hobby that I also love very much

But in the common room of this house, the general vibe leans pretty heavy to the argumentative side.

Maybe it's a kind of survivorship bias here? Those still standing in this common area after x years are the ones who were able and willing to thrive in this kind of dynamic. Everybody else just lurks or eventually scared away, lacking the necessary motivation or traits.

That's unfortunate because perhaps if the environment was more mindful and inclusive of progressive discussions, there might have been a more rich and diverse ecosystem of old and new ideas mixing together, which in turn deliver more value for everybody. Instead, is it possible that it feels a bit stagnant or cyclical here - in terms of the kind of arguing going on?

That's my just my POV, I could be overthinking it or over-reacting or missing important context!

 

[Emoshin]

Also speaking of conspiracy, who are they talking about on the The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread? It's making me a bit paranoid TBH.

 

[Old Fezziwig]

What someone else built doesn't matter, other than maybe as a comparitive example. I'm interested in hearing about your designs for a faucet, whether you've in fact built it yet or not, as in my view your designs and thoughts have the same potential to be great (or awful, or somewhere in between) as do those of anyone else including my own and including those who have already put their designs and thoughts out there.

I'm at least with you on this. More and new and different is great. If people can compellingly challenge or build on the ideas that have been floated already by previous theorists and designers (amateur or professional), all the better. I think we all benefit from that. But I do want those ideas to be shared!

 

[Thomas Shey]

This problem with this is we are not privy to the state of another’s mind, so how much “practical stuff” one needs is unknowable. I can’t be the only one who finds participating in such an environment stressful.

Maybe if I were just talking about the popular game and the popular ways it’s played, but that’s not always the case. If I want to say I am doing thing X, I shouldn’t need disclaimers and reassurances to fans of the popular game that does thing Y (in contrast to X) that their thing is still okay. It sometimes seems like the consideration is expected to flow one way.

I've occasionally expressed it as "Some people are incapable of distinguishing a statement that a game doesn't serve every purpose from a statement that it doesn't serve any purpose".

(Of course this doesn't even count the people who are determined that Their Favorite Game does, in fact, serve every purpose and any claim to the contrary is either someone just being contrarian or some tiny minority view that thinks their fetish matters)

 

[Thomas Shey]

Vincent Baker invented In A Wicked Age, Dogs in the Vineyard and Apocalypse World. The idea that he doesn't know anything more than me about RPG design, and has nothing more useful to say about it than I do, is just silly.

Does anyone make the parallel assertion about other fields of technical endeavour?

When there's no standard of what counts as technical excellence, they absolutely do. It just happens to be there's a limited number of those outside RPGs, but you absolutely can see it in discussion of the arts in some circles. To the degree it doesn't get much attention its because a large enough people have staked out what "quality" constitutes. In practice, that doesn't exist in the gaming hobby; you can find people who take it as a given that certain things land in that, but its usually within subgroups in the hobby, not the hobby as a whole.

 

[FrogReaver]

The idea that neutrality would make for better criticism is mistaken. Neutrality is the death of criticism.

May as well tell people you'd like more neutral praise. It makes no sense.

Just curious - how do you feel when 5e D&D fans criticize your favorite games in a non-neutral way? How do you respond when they do this?

 

[hawkeyefan]

When there's no standard of what counts as technical excellence, they absolutely do. It just happens to be there's a limited number of those outside RPGs, but you absolutely can see it in discussion of the arts in some circles. To the degree it doesn't get much attention its because a large enough people have staked out what "quality" constitutes. In practice, that doesn't exist in the gaming hobby; you can find people who take it as a given that certain things land in that, but its usually within subgroups in the hobby, not the hobby as a whole.

Are we really incapable of saying that Apocalypse World is a significant work in the RPG field? Like, collectively we can’t all acknowledge that?

 

[Thomas Shey]

Are we really incapable of saying that Apocalypse World is a significant work in the RPG field? Like, collectively we can’t all acknowledge that?

When a lot of their criteria is based on the popularity of D&D? Why would you expect them to do so?

Seriously, once someone comes from the right stance it isn't. Neither was RuneQuest. Or any number of other ground-breakers.

It doesn't help that, even among people outside the D&D-sphere, it can easily be perceived that PbtA games matter a great deal to a subset of the hobby, and not at all to the rest.

So what makes it "significant" to people who don't view the hobby as a whole?