Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

But in the common room of this house, the general vibe leans pretty heavy to the argumentative side.

You aren't wrong. But I expect, and have found, that to be true of internet discussion in general.

I think this brings me back to a point I made earlier in the thread, that I should perhaps expound upon. Criticism, discussion, and argument are different things, with different uses. To wit...

Criticism is an attempt to increase understanding through analysis. Good criticism requires that analysis to be cogent, which requires significant consistency of viewpoint. Thus, good criticism is generally perpetrated by individuals, or small groups of like-minded people. Unfortunately, messageboards are large groups of disparate-minded people.

Discussion is an attempt to increase understanding by discovery. In good discussion al parties listen and absorb information as much as they speak. Good discussion requires people of at least somewhat disparate viewpoints, but also requires one to relax one's stake in the game. As soon as your stake becomes a major player in the discussion, it becomes the third form...

Argument is an attempt to persuade. If it increases understanding, that is secondary to getting some other person (another debater or audience) to accept the correctness of your position.

On the boards we also have simple self-expression, in which one desires to put their thoughts out in the universe, and doesn't actually care about understanding or persuading.

EN World, as an environment and medium, is not very good for developing criticism - the audience and participants are too broad, and strongly tends to argumentation, as the critic positions to defend their critical framework, rather than use it.

Discussion can happen here, but the open mindset of taking your stake out of the results is sometimes difficult to maintain, to avoid falling into argumentation.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Are we really incapable of saying that Apocalypse World is a significant work in the RPG field? Like, collectively we can’t all acknowledge that?
No matter how important and obvious some kind of creative work is, you know there is that one guy (always a guy) who feels the need to deny it. Music, film, literature, everything.
So what makes it "significant" to people who don't view the hobby as a whole?
Why do we care what people who have a truly myopic view of the hobby think? That's like saying The Godfather sucks because a bunch of 19-year-old MCU fans haven't even heard of it.
 

Just curious - how do you feel when 5e D&D fans criticize your favorite games in a non-neutral way? How do you respond when they do this?
In my personal experience, I have rarely met a primary D&D 5e fan that has had the actual experience with other systems of play to meaningfully critic them. The ones that do, usually have interesting points. There are things that PbtA systems genuinely don't do well, and I don't think you'll find many PbtA fans that will disagree with that.
 

Just curious - how do you feel when 5e D&D fans criticize your favorite games in a non-neutral way? How do you respond when they do this?

I respond to criticism of things I enjoy with a counter argument of some sort, and back it up with examples of play that demonstrate the ideas I’m arguing.

Edited to add: This is when I disagree with the criticism. Sometimes, I actually may agree with it. It is possible to be critical of things we love.
 

Why do we care what people who have a truly myopic view of the hobby think? That's like saying The Godfather sucks because a bunch of 19-year-old MCU fans haven't even heard of it.

Because you don't get to screen them out of the discussion. If you have a discussion on here, you're going to get people with very narrow views and very broad, and unless you're very disciplined in who you respond to, you're probably going to be engaging with as many or more of the former as the latter.
 

Are we really incapable of saying that Apocalypse World is a significant work in the RPG field? Like, collectively we can’t all acknowledge that?

So, the bigger question is - why would we?

Really, what does it matter if it is "significant"? What purpose does acknowledging that serve? Do we care who wins the significance contest, or something?

Do we care if it is "significant", or do we care about what it accomplishes, and how, and why we might want to accomplish what it does?

What's more useful - getting someone to accept your argument, or to discuss with them why they don't? Is it more constructive to push your assertion, or to understand the others around you?
 

The same people who complain about "Forge terminology" and inability to have conversations that move past the Forge have not shown any willingness to engage with any of the post Forge work or the new framing many of us have tried to provide on these boards.
Maybe because the 'new framings' suffer from the same fundamental problems - they all exist to tell us why 5e does it wrong and never why 5e does anything right. Or sometimes they frame the things 5e does well in such a negative light that the contempt is obvious - '5e does mother may I well' as an example.

It's fundamentally difficult for me to see the complaints as fundamentally being about terminology rather than an aversion for concepts and games born out of it. Many of the same posters who keep beating the drum on this have also refused to acknowledge the creative contributions of the indie community, have called games like Sorcerer and Apocalypse World irrelevant and have launched personal attacks on posters who take a different approach to the player/GM authority relationship.
I'd suggest both sides have those taking unfounded extreme positions. If we are going to hold those up as a banner that one side is behaving badly, just understand that doing so doesn't absolve your side from similar behaviors.

Rightfully or wrongfully a lot of this feels like an attempt to erase games and concepts people do not like from the overall hobby. Those people (including the OP) who most strongly advocate against Forge terminology have never said anything that makes me believe anything to the contrary. I welcome such clarifying statements. I would love to be proven wrong.
I think it was @Lanefan that described it the best - what people recoil from is that what is occurring comes across as proselytizing. I don't think you mean it that way but it's why others have such a defensive reaction and why you then interpret their reaction as hostile.
 

In my personal experience, I have rarely met a primary D&D 5e fan that has had the actual experience with other systems of play to meaningfully critic them. The ones that do, usually have interesting points. There are things that PbtA systems genuinely don't do well, and I don't think you'll find many PbtA fans that will disagree with that.

Among other things there can be first-cause arguments; i.e. disagreeing with the basic premise supporting the defense of something. In the case of PbtA, its pretty much wrapped around the idea of failure (or partial success which can just as easily be read as partial failure) as benign and making play more interesting. If you have someone who tends to find frequent failure unpleasant and/or frustrating, that's not a premise they're going to agree with, no matter what your argument proceeding forward from it says and how well it stands up; to them its an argument based on an unsound foundation.

Similar things can happen with discussion of any other system with a set of basic design premises.
 


Are we really incapable of saying that Apocalypse World is a significant work in the RPG field? Like, collectively we can’t all acknowledge that?
I remember once pointing out that Vincent Baker is listed in the acknowledgements for MHRP, and that this showed us something about patterns of influence in RPG design, and being told (more or less) that I was wrong.

But to me, it seems not uncommon for the mainstream to have an origin, and for that origin to involve something or someone who wasn't always mainstream. RPGing doesn't seem especially different to me in this respect from other cultural fields.

I think I've used the example of sushi before. I don't know about sushi uptake in the US; but in Australia, 30 years ago sushi was a specialty or niche cuisine - avant garde, even. Now, when I ride past a construction site I can see the guys there eating their sushi out of their little plastic boxes, and every suburban shopping centre or food court has a sushi shop in it.

I dunno what the people who ate sushi in Melbourne 30 years ago are eating now. No doubt others take the piss out of them for it. In 30 years maybe that will be mainstream too. I mean, there's no guarantee of that - some niche things remain forever niche - but every bit of culture has to start somewhere.
 

Remove ads

Top