D&D General Not Railroad, Not Sandbox ... What else is there?

[GungHo]

I try to do the bingo card part, but I won't tell them they can't go do their own thing. I will explain to them what I have prepared for in very general terms and that I can adapt, and that I'm willing to go where they do, but there's an efficiency tax when they start going places I didn't think of while my brain catches up. I'm not a computer machine that just generates mental roguelike after mental roguelike.

 

[Scott Christian]

Not my experience. I've found numerous descriptions and conversations to be useful, even if they are not exact or succinct. A starting place to understand the product, not the middle and/or the end.

I can appreciate that and find it interesting. Would you mind stating how using these definitions have been useful to your D&D games?

 

[dragoner]

Thoughts? Other ideas that do not fit neatly into the above, or are another (perhaps better) way of thinking of Bingo Card or Card Trick?

Guided sandbox. Though TBH, I look at it like a railroad is 0, and sandbox is 11 on a number line, where most campaigns are approximately in the 7 to 9 range.

 

[payn]

I can appreciate that and find it interesting. Would you mind stating how using these definitions have been useful to your D&D games?

Sure, most of my recent experience has been with Paizo adventure paths, so I'll use some of those as examples.

Kingmaker was billed as a sandbox adventure. In a general sense, it really is. However, some might consider it more of a hexcrawl, or even a kingdom sim. I think these are elements of a sandbox, but some folks dont consider them sandbox in concept. The nuances where not important to me, but the discussions on those elements better prepared me as a GM to run the adventure. How to make the game feel more like an open world and that the PCs really have the freedom to explore the game and interact in whatever fashion they see fit.

Carrion Crown is a more traditional linear style adventure. A real horror of the week feel. During discussions I found out that each chapter actually really allows quite a bit of player freedom. So, while the PCs have to follow the tracks so to speak, they have a lot of discretion on how they take the journey from one adventure to the next. These discussions helped me as a GM bring the adventure to life and let the players feel in control of what folks traditionally feel is a distinct lack of control.

Many folks have their preferences. I avoid using railroad because I see the term as a specific GM style, and not a campaign style. I prefer linear because it denotes that there is a theme, a specific idea the players buy into. This is helpful as player because it informs me how proactive or reactive my play is likely to be. It helps as GM for the same reasons. This is always, in my experience, where the conversation starts, but inevitably leads to a deeper discussion on exactly what type of linear/non-linear game to expect. This is where it expands into investigation, kingdom sim, themes, hexcrawling, megadungeon, etc...

Does that make sense when I say the terms are conversation starters, but not enders?

 

[Yaarel]

Our session zero looks something like this.

We rotate as DMs for the same share world. New characters are often thr kids of the higher level characters.

We get together to see what we are in the mood for, genre, characters, location.

Often one of us has an adventure to run, and sees if the others are into it. If so, the DM often modifies the adventure to incorporate the player interests.

Then we choose the characters for it or create new characters.

 

[Yaarel]

I think linear and non-linear covers everything. Really, there is no need to make further distinctions.

Heh, so it would either be totalitarian dictatorship or savage anarchy? Really? There are better ways to benefit from each others company.

 

[Yaarel]

Not railroad, not sandbox, ... what else is there?

Session zero.


In session zero, players decide what they want and appoint a DM to run it.

Later, players have a general idea of what the adventure is about. Sometimes the DM does handholding if the players are unsure about how to move forward. Sometimes the players diverge from the adventure because something peripheral becomes a new center of interest.

 

[Greggy C]

So what is a classic Megadungeon? Sandbox or Railroad?

Its Sandbox in that you can go in any direction, do anything you want, kill the boss, help the boss.

Its Railroady since every room is predetermined and may automatically fulfill some plot.

 

[Scott Christian]

Sure, most of my recent experience has been with Paizo adventure paths, so I'll use some of those as examples.

Thanks for the thorough. It is appreciated.

Kingmaker was billed as a sandbox adventure. In a general sense, it really is. However, some might consider it more of a hexcrawl, or even a kingdom sim. I think these are elements of a sandbox, but some folks dont consider them sandbox in concept. The nuances where not important to me, but the discussions on those elements better prepared me as a GM to run the adventure. How to make the game feel more like an open world and that the PCs really have the freedom to explore the game and interact in whatever fashion they see fit.

If the question is how did it improve your game, do you not think you would have come to the same conclusion on how to run it after reading it? Not trying to be nitpicky or anything, but wouldn't simply reading that AP have you draw the same conclusion, regardless of a label? And, to that end, wouldn't it be better for the DM to interpret the style of game for their table, such as more of a kingdom sim? (I have heard nothing but great things about this AP, and it is one of the "next on the list" to get. So full disclosure, I have not read it. Hence, the questions.)

Carrion Crown is a more traditional linear style adventure. A real horror of the week feel. During discussions I found out that each chapter actually really allows quite a bit of player freedom. So, while the PCs have to follow the tracks so to speak, they have a lot of discretion on how they take the journey from one adventure to the next. These discussions helped me as a GM bring the adventure to life and let the players feel in control of what folks traditionally feel is a distinct lack of control.

I find this to be true of all APs. And the people who consistently regard them as railroads seem to not have a y-axis mindset when playing them or have never played them. But, in fairness to their opinions, it takes a lot of work to make them open and breathable, which is often a complaint that tags itself to the above "railroad." I am glad you had fun though. I was in a campaign that started Carrion, and it was awesome. The mini sets are great too!

Many folks have their preferences. I avoid using railroad because I see the term as a specific GM style, and not a campaign style. I prefer linear because it denotes that there is a theme, a specific idea the players buy into.

We are on the same page, although I think it is often implied for some tables. Granted, new table with new players definitely needs to be clarified, similar to alignment for some. That said, once you play with a DM once, you pretty much know the path they are going to take as far as more linear or really open. In my experience, if they change something, they will definitely let you know.

Thanks again for the answers.

 

[payn]

Thanks for the thorough. It is appreciated.

It was my pleasure.

If the question is how did it improve your game, do you not think you would have come to the same conclusion on how to run it after reading it? Not trying to be nitpicky or anything, but wouldn't simply reading that AP have you draw the same conclusion, regardless of a label?

I like be able to compare campaigns by putting them into buckets based on style, theme, etc... Linear/Non-linear is the highest level that informs me of the style of campaign before I commit to further research and/or purchase. Think of it in terms of types of games. D&D, Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, PbtA, Free League, etc.. All carry the RPG tag. Games like Diplomacy, Risk, and Monopoly do not. Now, I would argue that there is role play in certain board games, like the ones mentioned, but the play is hardwired to a specific set of mechanics and scope. Using the RPG label is useful because I know what style of game I'm looking at. I could, of course, just buy them and read the rule book and find out myself, but the label is a time saver.

And, to that end, wouldn't it be better for the DM to interpret the style of game for their table, such as more of a kingdom sim? (I have heard nothing but great things about this AP, and it is one of the "next on the list" to get. So full disclosure, I have not read it. Hence, the questions.)

Kingmaker is great and I'd recommend it. I also recommend scouring the net for forums on discussions. I have avoided many pitfalls in APs by doing so. It has been invaluable for helping me customize the experience for my table. Also, there is tons of cool stuff people are adding I never would have thought of.

I find this to be true of all APs. And the people who consistently regard them as railroads seem to not have a y-axis mindset when playing them or have never played them. But, in fairness to their opinions, it takes a lot of work to make them open and breathable, which is often a complaint that tags itself to the above "railroad." I am glad you had fun though. I was in a campaign that started Carrion, and it was awesome. The mini sets are great too!

We are on the same page, although I think it is often implied for some tables. Granted, new table with new players definitely needs to be clarified, similar to alignment for some. That said, once you play with a DM once, you pretty much know the path they are going to take as far as more linear or really open. In my experience, if they change something, they will definitely let you know.

I think you hit on a very important point here. A lot of groups find a groove and sit in it. However, every day new folks are just getting started. I had moved away from non-linear gaming for a long time in the aughts. When Kingmaker dropped it piqued my interest in sandbox gaming again. Now, had there not been advertising of the fact, I could have just bought it and ran it. Though, maybe I would have tried to run it as linear? If it bombs out at my table, perhaps I think it sucks? The truth would be I wasn't properly framed for the experience as intended.

Now, I like trying new things and expanding my GM toolkit and horizon. I know some folks have a wheelhouse and they never leave it. Some are introspective enough to admit it, others just assume that's how all games are to be played. This is another bonus of the linear/non-linear tag as it suggests there is a difference in these gaming styles.

Thanks again for the answers.

Anytime!