Not Reading Ryan Dancy

[Upper_Krust]

Hi RyanD (and everyone)!

I have been following this thread closely while embroiled in a discussion in the "WHAT IS NEXT BIG THING" thread.

I have been arguing that a purely pen & paper 4th Edition won't sell anywhere near as well as 3rd Edition, because it won't be that great of a leap this time around. Also with regards books that are more fluff than crunch what will be the great incentive to revisit them?

While exploring the online sector should continue, thats far from becoming a successor to tabletop D&D this generation of the game at least.

Which means that the next way forward must surely be along the lines of the boardgame format. A greatly simplified version of the game (akin to the D&D Boardgame) thats a marriage of board, minis and cards. Along the lines of the "new design release" you mentioned Ryan.

Personally I think such a vehicle could easily sell over 1 million units in the first year, possibly ten times that many. This could be achieved by broadening the brand extension as follows.

Start with:

Dungeons & Dragons

...then you target all the obvious:

Dungeons & Pirates
Dungeons & Dinosaurs
Dungeons & Vampires
Dungeons & Robots
Dungeons & Wizards
Dungeons & Ninjas
Dungeons & Zombies
Dungeons & Cthulhu

Then you can branch in multiple directions, mainstream...

Dungeons & DC
Dungeons & Marvel
Dungeons & Halo
Dungeons & Dragonball Z

...more self-referential:

Dungeons & Drow

...to the unorthodox:

Dungeons & Harryhausen

...promotional idea:

Dungeons & Donuts (with Dunkin Donuts - buy the 'Beholder Cookie' get unique minis/cards)
Dungeons & Pizza (with Pizza Hut - buy the extra hot 'Dragon Pizza' get free unique minis/cards)

...want to court the young female demographic:

Dungeons & Dora (the Explorer)
Dungeons & Barbie
Dungeons & Tomb Raider

...3rd Parties can license the use of the name.

Dungeons & Conan (Mongoose)

Then factor in expansion sets (or even 'sequels')

Dungeons & Pirates 2: The Isle of Dread
Dungeons & Vampires 2: Castle Ravenloft

...I haven't even touched on a similar, but subtley different, idea for using the Star Wars license.

Every boxed set retails for $39.95/£25, has about 30 prepainted minis, dice, flexible board pieces (by that I mean individual rooms and corridors rather than simply large board sections) which are also reversible, cards which do away with the necessity of book-keeping. Rulebook, Adventure Book, as well as blank cards, maps and character boards so that people can even create their own. As well as an Advanced Rulebook which presents optional rules for those wanting to make it a far more detailed roleplaying experience.

With each new boxed set you gain new classes, new NPCs, new feats, new magic items, new monsters, new locations, new adventures and potentially new themed rules (effects of vampirism in Dungeons & Vampires, sanity in Dungeons & Cthulhu etc.). But at the same time each has everything you need to start playing right away.

Its an insidious way of getting D&D into peoples hands, and you can't say well I don't want to play dumbed down D&D because the Advanced Rulebook can cover every aspect/feature of the game not present in the basic Rulebook.

Does anyone think that wouldn't be a massive seller? If so, why not?

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

Just wanted to jot down a quick thank you to both Ryans for sharing your insight into the market. I find it very fascinating, and disturbing at the same time. You would think an industry full of nerds would be on the cutting edge of information management and use of technology. But having been involved in various retail operations I can say it does not really surprise me.

Thanks for taking the time to share these insights with us.

 

[guildofblades]

>>Just wanted to jot down a quick thank you to both Ryans for sharing your insight into the market. I find it very fascinating, and disturbing at the same time. You would think an industry full of nerds would be on the cutting edge of information management and use of technology. But having been involved in various retail operations I can say it does not really surprise me.<<

It often seems that on both the manufacturer and retail levels that all the creativity goes into the games. Which on the face of it, seems like a good thing for the games and the people who play them. But on a business level most of those people have to look up from their game books and designs sometimes and realize that same level of creativity and effort must also be applied to the management of their businesses.

On the information technology side of things, its not always easy to implement as small business, manufacturer or retailer alike. Unless one of the partners just happens to come from a programming background, they have to hire to have this stuff done. And paying contract programmers is not cheap for a whole bunch of under capitalized businesses. The Guild of Blades was forced to start down the path of information management. When we finally decided that building a lasting and stable business through use of the distribution tier was nigh to impossible we ventured into self distribution, focusing efforts on direct sales to both retailers and consumers, effectively letting all products follow the path of least resistance to the hands of the gamers. And suddenly we found ourselves in command of a level of detailed information that we had not had access to, which was essentially filtered out of the picture when dealing through distributors. And we started to think, boy, if I could just do a zip code comparison of sales per title between our mail order sales volume and to that or retailers in the same zip codes and surrounding ones, that could tell us a LOT. And what we found was ultimately that strong sales to one would support stronger sales to the other. And that was just one example of using that data of many potential ones.

We are in the process of building our own custom CRM (Customer Relations Management) software so we can automate the collection and compilation of data into the formats best suited to our needs. The next interest set of data comparisons we'll be able to do is compare the user base of our online MMOs and the zip codes of our users against the existing mail order sales and store sales by zip code and see where the overlaps are.

I think once we have all of our system in place we might start to reach out to other manufacturers and online retailers to see if we can get data dumps of their customers and sales volumes to combine together with ours to continually build a geographical map of that data. I think it will tell us some very, very interesting things about the hobby market. I doubt we'll ever be able to negotiate a data dump for the leading computer game retailers, but at the very least I should be able to compare zip code data from the hobby side and compare that against the zip code locations of major chain stores for computer games. But we'll see. We may be able to find some enterprising companies in the computer game market that'll allow us to work with their data in exchange for getting access to the results.

Anyway, yes, its difficult for the smaller one man operations to integrate the use of POS systems and CRM software and build custom applications to truly leverage the data they have available to them. But I believe doing so will become increasingly more important as a key element of running a successful company in our industry at all three tiers and the need for those data system is going to make it much more difficult for under-funded companies to get a start in the business and survive. A sad thing considering the Guild of Blades got started more than a decade ago on less than $100. lol. I do foresee some business opportunity here for service IT professional service providers who can specialize in going in to set up and customize these systems for small companies who lack the staff experience to implement them themselves.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com
http://www.1483online.com
http://www.thermopylae-online.com

 

[JVisgaitis]

Does anyone think that wouldn't be a massive seller? If so, why not?

A couple reasons.

1. You're diluting your target market and selling your soul to release a ton of supplements to people that may not even care. DIe hard fans would easily get disgusted by this gross type of market mongering and move on to something else. I'd be the first to leave if this was the case. Also, just because there's a game with a pirate on the box, doesn't mean someone who likes pirates is going to buy it.

2. D&D is good at one thing: being D&D. No matter how appealing Dungeons & Dora might be to little kids, that's not what its about and it further tarnishes the brand. When people hear Dungeons & Dragons, there is a certain expection built up over the past 25+ odd years. Supplements like you are discussing certainly aren't it and that hurts the overall brand. Remember what happened to everyone's beloved Star Wars in recent years...?

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Supplements like you are discussing certainly aren't it and that hurts the overall brand.

I dunno, Monopoly has had a successful run at putting out a specialized Monopoly for nearly large city in the US that hasn't seemed to hurt the overall Monopoly game.

 

[JVisgaitis]

I dunno, Monopoly has had a successful run at putting out a specialized Monopoly for nearly large city in the US that hasn't seemed to hurt the overall Monopoly game.

It's still the same game. Your only changing the names of the locations not the heart and soul of a game that's been out for decades.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey JVisgaitis dude!

A couple reasons.

1. You're diluting your target market

The target market is everyone. Roleplayers, Wargamers, Tabletop enthusiasts, Collectors, Kids, Families etc.

So surely I am expanding the market, not diluting it. Does the Forgotten Realms also dilute the target market, or does it expand it?

Basically what I am talking about is Dungeons & Dragons in a box, but with some clever branding/marketing we can flavour each set to appeal to a different sub-sector to get them hooked.

As I see it, its no different from bringing out a themed adventure.

Secrets of Saltmarsh - Pirates, Ghosts, Sea Creatures
Castle Ravenloft - Vampires, Death Knights, Werewolves

If someones campaign is pirate themed then they are going to be more inclined to buy Secrets of Saltmarsh than Castle Ravenloft. How is that any different to what I am suggesting?

and selling your soul to release a ton of supplements to people that may not even care.

Can we not give them the chance to care? Did you somehow care about Dungeons & Dragons before you had ever played the game!? I fell in love with the game through playing, not before. So your logic is flawed.

DIe hard fans would easily get disgusted by this gross type of market mongering and move on to something else.

Just like they are disgusted with the D&D Miniatures chain. Just like they are disgusted with Monster Manual II, Monster Manual III, Monster Manual IV, Monster Manual V?

Was there a mass exodus of gamers when Wizards announced Monster Manual V?

I'd be the first to leave if this was the case.

I think you are viewing the scenario through pseudo-Gygax-tinted spectacles. In fact I think even the great man himself would see the opportunity of putting D&D in every home in America and jump at the chance.

Also, just because there's a game with a pirate on the box, doesn't mean someone who likes pirates is going to buy it.

So what? Do you buy everything with a dragon on the box/cover?

What we are talking about is being more direct in reaching people. A lot of it is of course smoke and mirrors. Dungeons & Pirates is nothing more than an Aquatic setting/Pirate themed adventure. Dungeons & Dinosaurs is basically Isle of Dread.

But logically, which is going to have the wider mass market appeal:

Dungeons & Dragons: Secrets of Saltmarsh

or

Dungeons & Pirates

2. D&D is good at one thing: being D&D.

Where is a good rolleyes smilie when you need one.

No matter how appealing Dungeons & Dora might be to little kids, that's not what its about and it further tarnishes the brand.

So if you bring out a Dungeons & Dragons chess set it somehow invalidates Dungeons & Dragons itself - is that what you are saying?

When people hear Dungeons & Dragons, there is a certain expection built up over the past 25+ odd years.

Yes but thats a good and a bad thing.

With my suggestion you get to keep Dungeons & Dragons but also branch out into other fields.

Supplements like you are discussing certainly aren't it and that hurts the overall brand.

I disagree, its just fear of change on your part.

Remember what happened to everyone's beloved Star Wars in recent years...?

No, what happened? They run out of movies but I doubt thats the point you are making?

 

[DaveMage]

UK: I think that this is what they wanted the "d20" name to do, which is why you have d20 modern, d20future, d20past, d20spectaculars (has this come out yet?), etc.

Since such product offerings seem to be waning, it doesn't look like it worked out too well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi DaveMage!

UK: I think that this is what they wanted the "d20" name to do, which is why you have d20 modern, d20future, d20past, d20spectaculars (has this come out yet?), etc.

Since such product offerings seem to be waning, it doesn't look like it worked out too well.

But d20 Modern or d20 Future (etc.) are not mass market products. In fact RPGs are not mass market products in general. They are specialist products.

I have the catalogue for the UKs largest retail chain (Argos) in front of me. It has videogames, boardgames and even card games. But theres not a whiff of roleplaying games.

But something more akin to a D&D boardgame (with board pieces, minis and cards) could potentially be a mass market product.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Damn you for quoting me line by line...

The target market is everyone. Roleplayers, Wargamers, Tabletop enthusiasts, Collectors, Kids, Families etc.

Having a target market that is everyone isn't feasible. Even a product as successful as the iPod isn't for everyone.

So surely I am expanding the market, not diluting it. Does the Forgotten Realms also dilute the target market, or does it expand it?

Sorry, my bad. You're diluting the D&D brand.

Basically what I am talking about is Dungeons & Dragons in a box, but with some clever branding/marketing we can flavour each set to appeal to a different sub-sector to get them hooked.

To get someone hooked, they have to be interested in the product in the first place. I don't think Dungeons & Dora would be a successful product. What mom would buy that for her kid?

Can we not give them the chance to care? Did you somehow care about Dungeons & Dragons before you had ever played the game!? I fell in love with the game through playing, not before. So your logic is flawed.

No, that's what marketing research is for. You can't just say lets throw these ideas against the wall and see if they stick. It doesn't work like that. If you want to get more feedback on this, start a poll.

Was there a mass exodus of gamers when Wizards announced Monster Manual V?

That's D&D. Dungeons & Dora isn't.

I think you are viewing the scenario through pseudo-Gygax-tinted spectacles. In fact I think even the great man himself would see the opportunity of putting D&D in every home in America and jump at the chance.

Sorry, I don't think so at all. I just don't think its a great idea. Like I said, start a poll. I'd be interested to see what other people say.

What we are talking about is being more direct in reaching people. A lot of it is of course smoke and mirrors. Dungeons & Pirates is nothing more than an Aquatic setting/Pirate themed adventure. Dungeons & Dinosaurs is basically Isle of Dread.

Maybe its just me, but I think it doesn't even have a good marketing name. What do Dungeons have to do with Pirates or Dora?

No, what happened? They run out of movies but I doubt thats the point you are making?

They sucked compared to the old ones and the Star Wars brand is severely tarnished because of it.