Not Reading Ryan Dancy

[Ourph]

A couple reasons.

1. You're diluting your target market and selling your soul to release a ton of supplements to people that may not even care. DIe hard fans would easily get disgusted by this gross type of market mongering and move on to something else. I'd be the first to leave if this was the case. Also, just because there's a game with a pirate on the box, doesn't mean someone who likes pirates is going to buy it.

2. D&D is good at one thing: being D&D. No matter how appealing Dungeons & Dora might be to little kids, that's not what its about and it further tarnishes the brand. When people hear Dungeons & Dragons, there is a certain expection built up over the past 25+ odd years. Supplements like you are discussing certainly aren't it and that hurts the overall brand. Remember what happened to everyone's beloved Star Wars in recent years...?

TSR was at its most successful when it was producing D&D action figures, D&D coloring books, D&D cartoons, a full fledged basic set, a D&D-based board game (Dungeon!) and a variety of other D&D branded items (including the geeky 70's style two-tone 3/4 length sleeve T-shirts with D&D book covers printed on the front....yich! ). I think, if you really would leave the D&D fold due to this kind of brand-name pimpage, you're probably in a very tiny minority (which would be made up for by the massive bucks selling all these other doo-dads would rake in).

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Damn you for quoting me line by line...



Having a target market that is everyone isn't feasible. Even a product as successful as the iPod isn't for everyone.

Good point. I'm not sure the "everything to everyone" approach is going to work that well.

 

[JVisgaitis]

TSR was at its most successful when...

That simply isn't true. Charles Ryan posted when D&D had its best year ever. I believe that was 2004 if memory serves.

I think, if you really would leave the D&D fold due to this kind of brand-name pimpage, you're probably in a very tiny minority.

I guess I'm just not coming across clearly. I love all of that stuff. I have lots of the toys, the cartoon on DVD, etc. I have no problem with any of that. I feel that what Upper_Krust is proposing to me isn't what D&D is all about.

I'm sorry but if I see a lot of new products like Dungeons & Robots, Dungeons & Dora, and whatever else on the market, to me it would look like a thinly veiled attempt to cash in on the D&D name and I would find another game to play or join the grognard ranks or don my hat of d02.

BTW, Upper_Krust I'm sorry if the tone of my previous response seems kinda harsh. I'm just at work and I don't have a lot of time to coddle my words. My apology if that's the case...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi JV!

Damn you for quoting me line by line...

You could always see sense and agree with me.

Having a target market that is everyone isn't feasible. Even a product as successful as the iPod isn't for everyone.

Obviously that was more sales pitch than accurate prediction, just like...

"D&D in every home!"

But the point is we are targeting as many areas as possible.

Sorry, my bad. You're diluting the D&D brand.

I think Ourph already answered this for me.

To get someone hooked, they have to be interested in the product in the first place.

Which is why we are targeting every possible avenue: Dragons, Pirates, Dinosaurs, Robots, Vampires, Zombies etc.

I don't think Dungeons & Dora would be a successful product. What mom would buy that for her kid?

Funnily enough there is a poster here on ENWorld whose daughter is a big Dora fan and they both have great roleplaying adventures using her various toys and what have you. I'll see if I can find the thread...unfortunately not - anyone know the thread I mean and have the link to it?

I don't see Dungeons & Dora being the same exact style as Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Pirates, Dungeons & Dinosaurs etc (after all there needs to be an age limit on board games with small pieces). But it could be a really cool (for 5 years olds) box of adventure props, glove puppets and so forth.

So while I don't see every boxed set (especially those further afield from the norm like Dora) adopting the exact same boards/minis/cards format they could all stick to the same rudimentary principles.

No, that's what marketing research is for. You can't just say lets throw these ideas against the wall and see if they stick. It doesn't work like that. If you want to get more feedback on this, start a poll.

Good idea.

That's D&D. Dungeons & Dora isn't.

Wouldn't you be curious to see Dora's stats to know if she and Boots could defeat Orcus or not?

Sorry, I don't think so at all. I just don't think its a great idea. Like I said, start a poll. I'd be interested to see what other people say.

Me too. I will start a poll tomorrow (I have to go out shortly).

Maybe its just me, but I think it doesn't even have a good marketing name. What do Dungeons have to do with Pirates or Dora?

Dora is an explorer...do I need to draw you a map? Shes practically a 5 year old Lara Croft.

They sucked compared to the old ones and the Star Wars brand is severely tarnished because of it.

Looking at the box office figures those movies still seemed pretty popular!

 

[Lanefan]

That simply isn't true. Charles Ryan posted when D&D had its best year ever. I believe that was 2004 if memory serves.

The previous poster was referring to TSR's best year; TSR didn't exist in 2004.....

Lanefan

 

[Ourph]

What Lanefan said.

I'm sorry but if I see a lot of new products like Dungeons & Robots, Dungeons & Dora, and whatever else on the market, to me it would look like a thinly veiled attempt to cash in on the D&D name and I would find another game to play or join the grognard ranks or don my hat of d02.

I guess I'm not coming across clearly. I think that attitude makes you part of a very small minority of D&D fans. Most people who like the game could care less what other products have the name D&D attached to them as long as the product they like and have grown accustomed to doesn't get replaced by those other entities.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi JV!

That simply isn't true. Charles Ryan posted when D&D had its best year ever. I believe that was 2004 if memory serves.

Actually Ourph said when TSR were at their most successful. Not D&D.

I guess I'm just not coming across clearly. I love all of that stuff. I have lots of the toys, the cartoon on DVD, etc. I have no problem with any of that.

I was planning a Dungeons & Dragons: Fortress of Fang boxed set and a Dungeons & Dragons: Animated Series boxed set. We need a Venger mini after all! Coolest villain since Darth Vader.

I feel that what Upper_Krust is proposing to me isn't what D&D is all about.

I thought it was about having fun.

I'm sorry but if I see a lot of new products like Dungeons & Robots, Dungeons & Dora, and whatever else on the market, to me it would look like a thinly veiled attempt to cash in on the D&D name and I would find another game to play or join the grognard ranks or don my hat of d02.

If you don't try it, how do you know if you'll like it or not?

Also, you keep raising the Dungeons & Dora idea like I'm suggesting it should replace the Forgotten Realms, when it would simply be a fun RPG-esque game for very young kids (and their parents). If D&D in some small capacity can help families interact, have fun and play together then I really don't care if some grumpy gamer elitest somewhere is metaphorically turning over in their grave.

...not saying you are that grumpy gamer elitest.

BTW, Upper_Krust I'm sorry if the tone of my previous response seems kinda harsh. I'm just at work and I don't have a lot of time to coddle my words. My apology if that's the case...

No apology necessary mate (you didn't sound harsh at all). I am enjoying this friendly discussion.

 

[JVisgaitis]

Wouldn't you be curious to see Dora's stats to know if she and Boots could defeat Orcus or not?

Um... no. But it would be funny seeing Swiper statted as a Rogue/Assassin.

Looking at the box office figures those movies still seemed pretty popular!

Not arguing with box office results at all, but you can't tell me that the prequels had a positive influence in growing the cult following of Star Wars.

Most people who like the game could care less what other products have the name D&D attached to them as long as the product they like and have grown accustomed to doesn't get replaced by those other entities.

Can't argue with that and I probably wouldn't find another game, but I would be thoroughly disgusted.

...not saying you are that grumpy gamer elitest.

Not grumpy, but I probably am a bit of an elitest.

 

[Lanefan]

Not arguing with box office results at all, but you can't tell me that the prequels had a positive influence in growing the cult following of Star Wars.

Scary though it is to say it, I know a few people who joined the "cult following" *because* of the prequels...

The prequels did their bit to keep the SW brand alive, and expand it. That there's a SW Celebration IV next May in Anaheim that'll be as big as GenCon Indy should be proof enough of that; I'd go so far as to suggest the prequels *did* grow the overall fan base and by a considerable amount...to the dismay, no doubt, of a minority of original-trilogy purists.

That said, I'm not sure the various "Dungeons and ..." ideas would do the same unless they stuck pretty close to genre. "Dungeons and Pirates" would work, as would "Dungeons and Sherwood (Robin Hood)". "Dungeons and Anime" would be a very big stretch. "Dungeons and Thomas the Tank Engine" would be laughable, and only serve to harm the greater franchise.

Lanefan

 

[PatEllis15]

Not arguing with box office results at all, but you can't tell me that the prequels had a positive influence in growing the cult following of Star Wars.

Well, they added my boys, 8 and 4 to the cult.

Place the 6 movies on a table and ask which one they want to watch (well we don't let my 4 year old watch Episode III), and they will pick them in the following order 9 times out of 10:

Episode II
Episode I
Episode VI
Episode III
Episode IV
Episode V

I keep trying to tell them that Empire is best....

What adults seem to forget is that the original movies captures most of us when were not yet in high school. The prequels did the same for the kids of today, whether we like them or not.

Not sure how Dungeons and Elmo would play out (Is that Imix?!), but I'm all for expanding the brand. We need a replacement generation for D&D. Star Wars has that repalcement generation already....

Pat E