Not Reading Ryan Dancy

[teitan]

Ryan Dancey to me is like the Sandy Collora of RPGs. Sandy Collora is a guy who works in movies who's done a few short films about Batman and Superman that looked cool as 3 minute clips but everybody praises them like the man is a god and is proving that you can use the traditional costumes etc. I think the guy could be about the worst thing for a comic book movie but anyway... people latch onto these guys opinion and the majority of the time it seems to me personally that they are wrong and by a wide margin. While I agree that WOW and similar games have eaten into the RPG audience by eating up entertainment dollars but he seems to exaggerate the extent and his opinions on D&D development and where it is going should have as much weight as my own opinions because we don't work in the company and our insights should both be seen in the same light: idle speculation. Sure, he is more educated on the matter but how long has it been since he worked at the company? Another opinion of his that I think is wrong is his opinion on various campaign settings for D&D being a part of TSR's downfall when you look at other companies like WHite Wolf and it is THEIR bread and butter. I'm sorry, Ryan Dancey is a lot of smoke & mirrors.

 

[JVisgaitis]

I'm sorry, Ryan Dancey is a lot of smoke & mirrors.

That was kinda harsh. Did you miss the whole part in the thread where his accuracy on all things in the industry was mentioned? Ryan's arguments are usually backed by a lot of real world data. I'd like to see the data you are using to back up your observations. Either that, or a resume with some real world experience.

 

[Mighty Veil]

If they take no action, WotC will let the above become truth. Today, it is not truth. WoW has a lot of players, but there's very little brand equity in it; it mostly means "a MMORPG". D&D, over 35 years, has a vastly wider audience,

Only problem is the D&D brand has a negative public reaction, unlike WoW. I think that's been RPGs' problems since the mid-90s. Most of its designers stopped designing it for a wider audience. It choose the demos it wanted to appeal to. And that narrow choice to overall target made it something far, far away to the radar of the casual person.

At work people have no troubles talking about WoW in front of others. A few who hadn't heard of it will make a "D&D" joke. But then that joker gets quickly corrected -- "It's not D&D! It's an online game".

Michael Jackson is a father. No one thinks "MJ" when asked for a good example of an adult with children. He has a bad rep. D&D's rep isn't very good these days.

 

[Umbran]

I'm sorry, Ryan Dancey is a lot of smoke & mirrors.

Perhaps you missed the post above, where in bright bold red letters a moderator warned against making arguments personal.

I should not have to make a second warning about that so soon. So everybody, before you post - consider carefully, because there won't be a third warning. Respect, please. No more name calling, derision, or dismissiveness.

 

[happyelf]

If they take no action, WotC will let the above become truth.

I didn't say they should take action, but they can't beat Blizzard in the MMO stakes. They're too strong. This is particularly true considering how many companies are already trying to create the next WOW or some variation therof. WOTC and any company would be better off staying away from the MMO model, unless they simply want to create a profitable MMO and feel they have a niche, as may be the case with White Wolf.

Today, it is not truth. WoW has a lot of players, but there's very little brand equity in it; it mostly means "a MMORPG".

I'm no fan of the warcraft setting but a lot of people have played those games and for a great many of them that is the generic fantasy setting. You ask these people what fantasy isto them and they will say warcraft and the LOTR movies.

Blizzard has een around a long time and they have a generation of loyal fans who have grown up playing their games. There are even many people who look at Dawn of War and claim that Games Workshop is ripping off Starcraft(as opposed to Starship Troopers). And we're not talking small numbers here, we're talking huge numbers of fans.

D&D, over 35 years, has a vastly wider audience, across a wide demographic, a diverse psychographic, and it has been successfully leveraged into movies, video games, and novels, as well as its original application as a tabletop RPG.

I really think you're underestimating the huge power of Blizzard and it's games. This is an industtry giant in an industry much larger than this one. And while MMO's are still a niche hobby, WOW is hugely suceessful and is clearly tapping into mainstream demographics, many of wich is brushed against with it's earlier games.

Give them 10 more years, and Blizzard will solidify their brand and D&D will lose that race forever. But the race is still running as we debate, and it is far from lost.
Ryan

The best way to win a battle is before it is even fought. Blizzard did that, by creating a brand and a loyal fanbase years before it took on the MMO genre. And when it did hit that genre, it turned that fanbase into the a core wich has grown to enormous size. Nobody can struggle with them now, they already won, and there's no shortage of would-be-giant killers viying for future market share.

I'm aware that you're not nesecarily proposing a straight up mmo brawl here, but the reality is that if you try and tpa in that market, you're competing with WOW and other potential giants directly, and they're already taking players and consumers away from computer games and hobby games. The solution to that isn't to meet them head on, it's to find a niche they're not serving.

I personally think that niche is variety. Variety of preference is at the core of this hobby and WOTC or another large company were to really embrace that as part of their product, that could give them a more genuine service to sell to subscribers, for instance. Ideas like player matching (not just by location, but by play style, freetime, ect), some kind of simple prefernce language, and a versatile approach to mechanics and the like would give players the tools they need to find the games they want.

This is of course the opposite of the MMO approach, where everyone is in a big tent and variant play styles are at best poorly understood. Even WOW has at least partially failed to sevice variants like more casual players and PVPers. but they can hardly avoid doing so since such attempts clash with the MMO model.

 

[happyelf]

I'm just curious...exactly what "bad things" do you hear?
I ask because "I've heard nothing but bad things about the RPGA" is a pretty common attitude I see among EN Worlders. Please don't consider me an RPGA apologist (the organization has a lot of warts), but I've enjoyed playing in the RPGA for years. It's obviously not for everyone, but I'm always curious to hear why people hate RPGA so much.

I just hear a lot wich suggests to me that it's dominated by powergamers and inclusive in a way wich ultimatly drives people away from it.

Then there's the unsubstantiated rumors. Like some guy in new zealand saying that he went to a meet and the guy who got player of the night was the guy who kept screaming "BOOYAH" whenever he rolled good. And there was some guy in Brisbane who refused to talk to women at his table. Stuff like that wich, while it could be dismissed, is passed around a bit too often to be disregarded entirely.

Sure, a lot of it is common to clubs and conventions regardless of their afiliation, but that's the point- if you're going to have an RPGA, it has to do better than the norm, or better than the lower benchmark.

I think comunity is the key to this hobbymaking a resurgence, in fact I think it would birng the hobby to new heights. If we can create real clubs, a club culture, that embrances not only playstyle and other types of matching, but requires a decent standard of behaviour from it's members, I think this hobby could explode. Buti've yet to see an organisation that could really make that happen.

 

[Glyfair]

Stuff like that wich, while it could be dismissed, is passed around a bit too often to be disregarded entirely.

You mean like the things I hear about players that play D&D? I hear a lot about how people that play are always committing crimes that play D&D. That sort of stuff is passed around pretty often, too.

 

[happyelf]

You mean like the things I hear about players that play D&D? I hear a lot about how people that play are always committing crimes that play D&D. That sort of stuff is passed around pretty often, too.

Yeah, I hear a lot of stories about people who play D&D being socially inept, neurotic, acting out wierd power fantasies in the game, I hear about whole clubs dying because the people in charge won't deal with key troublemakers with odious personalities, I hear about long term friendships being ruined by bad games, I hear about new players being driven away from the hobby because their first experience with it is extremly unpleasant. And you know what? All those things happen.

I'm not talking about fiction and anti-D&D hysteria here, i'm talking about the fact that the hobby has some very negative contributors, and since comunity is so important to it, any buisness that seeks to capitalise on that comunity, has to deal with those problem players and issues.

I'm not being elitist here. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of unfair labels, and I don't expect gamers to be super-trendy or outgoing or perfect people or whatever. But there are a lot of things holding back the hobby, and dysfinctional comunity issues rank high on the list of root causes. The RPGA fails to genuinly deal with that reality.

 

[Wraith-Hunter]

Only problem is the D&D brand has a negative public reaction, unlike WoW. I think that's been RPGs' problems since the mid-90s. Most of its designers stopped designing it for a wider audience. It choose the demos it wanted to appeal to. And that narrow choice to overall target made it something far, far away to the radar of the casual person.

At work people have no troubles talking about WoW in front of others. A few who hadn't heard of it will make a "D&D" joke. But then that joker gets quickly corrected -- "It's not D&D! It's an online game".

Michael Jackson is a father. No one thinks "MJ" when asked for a good example of an adult with children. He has a bad rep. D&D's rep isn't very good these days.

Not the mid 90's try mid 80's. D&D struggled with a bad rep for many years.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I'm not being elitist here. I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of unfair labels, and I don't expect gamers to be super-trendy or outgoing or perfect people or whatever. But there are a lot of things holding back the hobby, and dysfinctional comunity issues rank high on the list of root causes. The RPGA fails to genuinly deal with that reality.

I think you are being elitist. A Disfunctional community is not the same as a group populated with some individuals with inept social skills. Seriously, this is par for the course in the RPG hobby. If you are going to put together an organization whose goal is to get a cross section of RPG hobbyists to come together and play you are going to end up getting a representative cross section of those playing the game... and it will include, very likely, a representative cross section of those in the hobby with bad socializing skills or habits.

What is the RPGA supposed to do to "genuinely deal with that reality"? Create a crack squad of social-skill police? Forcibly ban anyone who doesn't bathe every day? Or doesn't wash their hair? Or doesn't use deodorant? Require new members take etiquette classes before being able to attend a convention?

Plus, any sufficiently large organization is going to have personality clashes regardless of social ability of members, and these clashes are more likely the sort of things that bring down clubs rather than just the random eccentric member.

I'm very understanding about having standards about who you will play with at your own table, but condemning a whole organization because its membership is open to all is elitist.

Also, from the sound of it, some of your complaints are five years old at least. The RPGA's Living Campaigns ditched "player of the table" awards years ago.

I've played in the RPGA's Living Greyhawk campaign since 2001. I have met some odious people I would never invite to my house to play. Far more, I have sat at scores tables with hundreds of the best role players in the hobby.