Notes from Green Ronin seminar

[Michael Tree]

Yes, but there's no alternative. As WotC fails to commit themselves to the OGL model - they just don't say anything in this regard - it's lastly their failure. Companies like Mongoose or Green Ronin do the only thing that's prudent in this situation.

Talking about whether or not 4e will be OGL misses the point, IMO. Even if it's completely open, and a 4e SRD is released to publishers in advance of the street date of the 4e PHB, it's still risky for publishers to spend resources on d20 "D&D supplements."

After all, 3.5 was completely open, and it still "kicked publishers in the nuts." The simple fact is that once 4e is announced, and there's no way for publishers to know in advance of an announcement, sales of d20 "D&D suppliments" will plummet, and the entire backstock will become unsellable. Meanwhile, independent lines like M&M, True20, AE, and Mongoose's licenses will remail viable sellers for quite a while, regardless of 4e.

 

[Corinth]

I think that there needs to be some conversations about this behind the scenes between the third-party publishers and the relevant powers at Wizards of the Coast. There is no action that we on the outside can do about this, other than to gather this information on our own and write those same individuals at Wizards of the Coast explaining the issue to them- what it is, why it matters to them, and why they need to cooperate actively with third-party publishers to their mutual advantage.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Well, it was modeled after that open source license for computer programming. (GPL? GNU?) Why, do those licenses have expiration dates?

D&D isn't software, though. I think WotC was insanely generous with the OGL.

It's good for gamers, but probably, ultimately, bad for WotC. (D20 good, OGL bad.)

 

[Turjan]

Talking about whether or not 4e will be OGL misses the point, IMO. Even if it's completely open, and a 4e SRD is released to publishers in advance of the street date of the 4e PHB, it's still risky for publishers to spend resources on d20 "D&D supplements."

After all, 3.5 was completely open, and it still "kicked publishers in the nuts." The simple fact is that once 4e is announced, and there's no way for publishers to know in advance of an announcement, sales of d20 "D&D suppliments" will plummet, and the entire backstock will become unsellable. Meanwhile, independent lines like M&M, True20, AE, and Mongoose's licenses will remail viable sellers for quite a while, regardless of 4e.

I think you mean exactly the same what I meant. But if 4E is actually not open, this will be less than a 'kick in the nuts', but more like an executioner's axe. We are not talking about plummeting sales then, but sales will be reduced to zero. That's lost authors' and artists' wages, lost time for the designers and editors and means at least one year of no new product. If they survive that year (unlikely ) and find a new business idea, that's fine - well, not really . Obviously not a good idea. That's why I think a change to a D&D version without OGL is even worse than just a version change on short announcement.

But I think it's clear that sales will probably already stop for all 3.5 compatible product (except WotC's) shortly after the announcement of 4.0, like you said, not with release. Customers expect a big change from a version number 4.0. Why buy soon-to-be-outdated product until then?

 

[Rasyr]

the announcement of a new version if quite often the death knell for products from the previous version as soon as it is announced. This is a major reason why many companies do not announce when they are working on a revision until it is almost complete.

 

[Akrasia]

the announcement of a new version if quite often the death knell for products from the previous version as soon as it is announced. This is a major reason why many companies do not announce when they are working on a revision until it is almost complete.

So how's the new version of Rolemaster coming, Rasyr?

 

[Vocenoctum]

Yes, but there's no alternative. As WotC fails to commit themselves to the OGL model - they just don't say anything in this regard - it's lastly their failure. Companies like Mongoose or Green Ronin do the only thing that's prudent in this situation.

To be clear, the companies are using the OGL to profit themselves without adding back to D20. They made plenty of money off the D20 license, but now they're fracturing the market with each having their own system. Why not just make your own game system instead of using the d20 basics then?

The companies can't sell backstock when the OGL changes, but at the same time say that products past the 90 day mark are virtually unsaleable?

WotC kicked them? See, it's odd because I thought WotC provided them the ability to attach themselves to the best selling game system at the moment. I heard a lot of folks say 3.5 would split the market, but most D&D players switched without a big problem from my personal experiences. It's a shame all the OGL games have to deviate for (to me) not much more reason that giving themselves a proprietary system.

I like plenty of variety, but frankly everyone has D&D in my group. Whenever some other game looks interesting, I have to compare it to the amount of work in preparing stuff for the players to use.

 

[Turjan]

To be clear, the companies are using the OGL to profit themselves without adding back to D20. They made plenty of money off the D20 license, but now they're fracturing the market with each having their own system. Why not just make your own game system instead of using the d20 basics then?

Some of them do just that. That's where WFRP comes in, and the new version of Runequest by Mongoose is obviously based on the old Runequest/BRP. Nevertheless, both companies still produce d20 products, thus "adding back to d20". Btw, you should read up on what the OGL was actually for; it was meant to produce gamers, preferrably D&D gamers, but not necessarily so.

The companies can't sell backstock when the OGL changes, but at the same time say that products past the 90 day mark are virtually unsaleable?

Their backstock is something different than the stuff you see on the shelves. They have invested money and people in producing product for the next year; that's all lost then.

WotC kicked them? See, it's odd because I thought WotC provided them the ability to attach themselves to the best selling game system at the moment. I heard a lot of folks say 3.5 would split the market, but most D&D players switched without a big problem from my personal experiences. It's a shame all the OGL games have to deviate for (to me) not much more reason that giving themselves a proprietary system.

Where do you see the 'either or" point here? WotC provided them the ability to attach themselves to D&D and kicked them afterwards. 3.5 nearly killed the d20 market. In order to protect themselves from further such attacks, companies are prudent to deviate enough from standard D&D to make themselves immune to a version change or a termination of the d20 STL. As many of those games fill niches that WotC doesn't even touch, I don't see that as a problem for D&D.

I like plenty of variety, but frankly everyone has D&D in my group. Whenever some other game looks interesting, I have to compare it to the amount of work in preparing stuff for the players to use.

That's fine. But if you don't intend to use any other games deviating too much from standard d20, why do these moves bother you at all?

 

[Vocenoctum]

That's fine. But if you don't intend to use any other games deviating too much from standard d20, why do these moves bother you at all?

Because I can use D20 stuff a lot easier than OGL stuff that is significantly different. Also a book of alternate rules such as Unearthed Arcana is a lot more useful to me than an alternate PHB full of minor rules, many of which I can't pull out without figuring out where they impact other part's of the game. By making a supplement True20, they remove me from their market.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I don't mind OGL products in the least. Most are still very usable in either D&D or D20 Modern, if you don't really want to use the variant system in each book. I'm not overly keen on OGL product that stray too far from the norm, but in the case of M&M I'm fine with it since it's not competing with D&D (or Modern) and does very well in filling a gap in my gaming needs that I haven't found a product before to fill. OGL products lik AE or WoW are more my speed. Sure, there are differences from D&D, but they are easily used alongside my other D&D material.

I guess what it comes down to is if they stray too far, they lose my dollar. That's fine. There are plenty of other books out there and I wasn't their target audience. No harm no foul and OGL keeps on a-truckin!

Kane