NPC class CR?
- Thread starter Voadam
- Start date
Well, in 3.0 it's clearly (Monster CR + NPC class levels - 1) = adjusted CR. (3.0 DMG p. 102).
And I do think that's what it should be, at least in the case of your 20th-level Warrior example. When I construct a 20th-level Warrior (same as sample Ftr20 in DMG with reduced hit points and back out bonus feats), and run it through my Open Gaming Combat Simulator, then the War20 is in fact an even match for a Ftr19 in both melee and ranged combat: http://www.superdan.net/softwin.html
And I do think that's what it should be, at least in the case of your 20th-level Warrior example. When I construct a 20th-level Warrior (same as sample Ftr20 in DMG with reduced hit points and back out bonus feats), and run it through my Open Gaming Combat Simulator, then the War20 is in fact an even match for a Ftr19 in both melee and ranged combat: http://www.superdan.net/softwin.html
frankthedm
First Post
That quote applies to monsters that had racial HD to start with.Voadam said:
eamon
Explorer
The DMG guidelines suggest that the CR of a 20th level warrior is indeed 19. This is completely off bat however, the real CR is at least a few points lower.
The DMG guidelines aren't very accurate beyond 5th level, at best. The difference between a 20th level warrior and a 19th level fighter are much much more than a CR (I wonder exactly what this OGL simulator does to not notice this). First of all, a warrior isn't using the elite array (or 25point buy) but simply the normal array (or 15 point buy), which makes quite a difference right off the bat. The extra HP are relevant, as is the hugely increased power of so many feats. An NPC warrior is thus at least 2 CR lower than an NPC fighter, and an NPC fighter of 19th level isn't accurately described as CR 19 either (just compare it to others in the MM, or imagine the challenge one such fighter would pose a 19th level PC party - namely pretty much none whatsoever). The differences between PC and NPC wealth are huge at high levels, but in any case, don't use the DMG guidelines blindly, unless you really don't care about accuracy at all.
This thread contains some discussion about judging ECL's
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-885205.html
There's no particular conclusion, but for NPC's with PC abilities + classes the CR is judged to be about 1 lower than their level, and at mid-to-high level, 2 lower. NPC warriors not using the elite array should be about again a CR or two lower (again the difference is greater at higher levels).
To be entirely clear, that's what I think the appropriate rating of such a challenge is. The DMG guidelines are different. But I'm positive that those aren't any good ;-).
Another thing to keep in mind: an NPC has wealth according to his ECL if you follow RAW. however, this is obscene. Give him wealth according to his CR instead, and you'll be happier ;-).
The DMG guidelines aren't very accurate beyond 5th level, at best. The difference between a 20th level warrior and a 19th level fighter are much much more than a CR (I wonder exactly what this OGL simulator does to not notice this). First of all, a warrior isn't using the elite array (or 25point buy) but simply the normal array (or 15 point buy), which makes quite a difference right off the bat. The extra HP are relevant, as is the hugely increased power of so many feats. An NPC warrior is thus at least 2 CR lower than an NPC fighter, and an NPC fighter of 19th level isn't accurately described as CR 19 either (just compare it to others in the MM, or imagine the challenge one such fighter would pose a 19th level PC party - namely pretty much none whatsoever). The differences between PC and NPC wealth are huge at high levels, but in any case, don't use the DMG guidelines blindly, unless you really don't care about accuracy at all.
This thread contains some discussion about judging ECL's
http://forums.gleemax.com/archive/index.php/t-885205.html
There's no particular conclusion, but for NPC's with PC abilities + classes the CR is judged to be about 1 lower than their level, and at mid-to-high level, 2 lower. NPC warriors not using the elite array should be about again a CR or two lower (again the difference is greater at higher levels).
To be entirely clear, that's what I think the appropriate rating of such a challenge is. The DMG guidelines are different. But I'm positive that those aren't any good ;-).
Another thing to keep in mind: an NPC has wealth according to his ECL if you follow RAW. however, this is obscene. Give him wealth according to his CR instead, and you'll be happier ;-).
eamon
Explorer
Reference MM Chapter 4: Improving Monsters (MM p. 290)
Quote from ze crazy page 291: [sblock]If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its
character level for purposes of determining how much equipment
it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement
entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding
character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate
CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.[/sblock]
Reference DMG p. 38 for the blurb on that NPC classes count as one CR less than PC classes.
But just to point out how crazy these rules are, that means that an NPC Stone Giant Fighter(1) is CR 9, and has 170k (!) wealth. This works out to having 15HD, a BAB of +11, Str 32, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, Natural armor +11, 163 hp, and is large.
Apparantly this should be somehow comparable to an NPC, warrior (10) which is also CR 9 and has 16k (!) wealth. This works out to having 10HD, a BAB of +10, Str 14,Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8, no natural armor, 55 hp, and isn't large.
Do those things look even vaguely comparable? no? Then don't take the DMG / MM guidelines for NPC wealth and challenge ratings too seriously.
Quote from ze crazy page 291: [sblock]If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its
character level for purposes of determining how much equipment
it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement
entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding
character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate
CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.[/sblock]
Reference DMG p. 38 for the blurb on that NPC classes count as one CR less than PC classes.
But just to point out how crazy these rules are, that means that an NPC Stone Giant Fighter(1) is CR 9, and has 170k (!) wealth. This works out to having 15HD, a BAB of +11, Str 32, Dex 18, Con 22, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, Natural armor +11, 163 hp, and is large.
Apparantly this should be somehow comparable to an NPC, warrior (10) which is also CR 9 and has 16k (!) wealth. This works out to having 10HD, a BAB of +10, Str 14,Dex 12, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8, no natural armor, 55 hp, and isn't large.
Do those things look even vaguely comparable? no? Then don't take the DMG / MM guidelines for NPC wealth and challenge ratings too seriously.
