NPC made on character generator

[DracoSuave]

But there would also have been 4 of them instead of 2.

But then they'd have been hitting like elites, which would have made the first round of combat very deadly for the party. That's the other side of the equation, instead of having an elite's power output in one round, the party'd be facing 4 elite's power output, which could very well have lead to a TPW. Both sides of the equation have to be balanced.

 

[James McMurray]

Have you done it, or just theorized? All I can say is that I've done it and it works well. They're not hitting like elites because their stats are not as good as an elite NPC's would be.

Prior to the character generator, I wouldn't recommend it because it's too much work for too little return. The NPC is probably going to die before they use all their powers. But now that you can pick a race, class, and level then click "go" I'll probably do it more often. I still wouldn't recommend it for everyday use, because the elite NPCs have more staying power and are more numerically accurate, but it's by no means over- or underpowered.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Using NPCs generated through the Character Creator actually works out well if you're running a gritty combat game. It's how I prefer to play, and it keeps battles down to 3-4 rounds, instead of the extended 7-8 with NPCs generated as recommended in the back of the DMG.

I like the fast, furious and dangerous style of play a lot better.

 

[MrMyth]

Have you done it, or just theorized? All I can say is that I've done it and it works well. They're not hitting like elites because their stats are not as good as an elite NPC's would be.

The problem I've seen is that Daily Powers are usually much more brutal than anything most elites or even solos have - and a group of NPCs who each have several Daily powers to burn can unleash pretty absurd damage on the PCs in a very short span of time. Was this not an issue for you?

Also, how did you handle gear?

I don't think using PC rules for NPCs is completely undoable, I just see it as having a number of issues easily dealt with by the NPC creation rules.

 

[DracoSuave]

Have you done it, or just theorized? All I can say is that I've done it and it works well. They're not hitting like elites because their stats are not as good as an elite NPC's would be.

Oh trust me, they were hitting -just as hard- as player characters would. See, here's the trick with doing this.

If you treat them as elites, you'll have a couple of guys with sub-normal hps who can hit very hard. The party WILL slaughter them fairly easily once the alpha strikes are out of the way.

If you treat them as normals, you'll really have party A going after Party B. You'll obstensively be running Party vs Party combat, except with greater co-ordination for Party B because they'll be operating with one single mind. If the NPCs are equal level to the party, then you'll have a situation where you have two equivalently balanced stats against each other, with one side having an advantage.

That side isn't the players. This is going to 50/50 chance at best, result in a TPW.

Remember how in 3rd edition a party of npcs were an encounter higher level then the level of the npcs? About 3 or 4 levels higher? The -exact same- principle applies here.

 

[James McMurray]

The problem I've seen is that Daily Powers are usually much more brutal than anything most elites or even solos have - and a group of NPCs who each have several Daily powers to burn can unleash pretty absurd damage on the PCs in a very short span of time. Was this not an issue for you?

No. For one thing, they died easier, so while round one was tough, round 3 was easier. They also managed to miss with their dailies fairly regularly. For instance, the NPC cleric (who was supposed to help give the others staying power) died in 1 1/2 rounds, having only taken one or two actions.

Also, how did you handle gear?

It was an enemy party of adventurers, and their gear consisted of what was expected in the adventure's reasure parcels, plus some of what they had managed to steal from the PCs earlier.

Oh trust me, they were hitting -just as hard- as player characters would. See, here's the trick with doing this.

That's odd, I don't recall you at our table that night.

If you treat them as normals, you'll really have party A going after Party B. You'll obstensively be running Party vs Party combat, except with greater co-ordination for Party B because they'll be operating with one single mind. If the NPCs are equal level to the party, then you'll have a situation where you have two equivalently balanced stats against each other, with one side having an advantage.

The players work well together, and know their own characters better than I know every in-and-out of the NPCs. If this is a concern, it will be a concern in any combat where there is a large group of enemies operating with a single hive mind.

I had tactics decided beforehand (as advised by the DMG), and modified those on the fly, just like I do with every fight.

Also, the stats are not equivalent, because the PCs have much better gear, and gear is a large chunk of your effectiveness in 4e. The NPCs are using items from the PCs' wish list, so unless you've carbon copied a PC, that item is less than optimal for the NPC.

That side isn't the players. This is going to 50/50 chance at best, result in a TPW.

That's a good start for a theory. Have you run any experiments? Without actual data, I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue to believe my own experiences over your beliefs.

Remember how in 3rd edition a party of npcs were an encounter higher level then the level of the npcs? About 3 or 4 levels higher? The -exact same- principle applies here.

Not according to the books or my experiences. Again, have you tried this, or do you just have it in your head that it won't work?

The NPC design steps in the DMG say they're there to save you work, not because using PC stats is unbalanced. When there is a tool that can create NPCs with a few clicks, the reason for the DMG guidelines goes away. They're still useful, and mandatory if you want a full blown NPC from most of the races in the DMG. In fact, I prefer them to a one-click randomizer because I'm more likely to get powers that I want to play with, and combinations between NPCs that will be challenging. Plus they're easier to manage because you're not tracking very many things that don't fit in a power line (like feats, paragon path abilties, etc.).

But that doesn't make the other methods of NPC generation wrong, just different. I'll definitely create full blown NPCs again in the future, because I like the added feats, paragon, and epic abilities that DMG NPCs don't get.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, if you create using the PC generator, you generate 5 PCs.

These PCs are going to be using the same rules as -your- PCs and therefore should have equivalent stats and abilities.

All things considered, that would make them equivalent to the party members in terms of attacking and defensive power. That means that the battle becomes a coinflip, with any error in this accounted for by the PC's ability to create more streamlined characters over yours, or vice versa.

The PCs would have a chance to down the NPCs, and the NPCs would have an equal chance to defeat the PCs. You know this because if you switched the character sheets of the NPCs with the PCs, you'd have an equivalent scenario, with the players having the same level characters, against the same level antagonists.

A coinflip battle is considered a -very- hard battle in 4e rules.

Anecdote is not the singular of data. If you ran a series of battles like that, with NPCs created using the same rules as PCs, it will mostly tend towards defeat of the PCs about 50 percent of the time.

Ask yourself this? How many times has a PC outlayed as much damage -in a single round- as they have hps, or more? If this happens often, then equivalent NPCs can have the same expectations.

As an example: Take the encounter I had above, a level 5 barbarian and a level 5 bravura warlord. The character with initiative moved forward, and attacked the barbarian. Thank god I was running him as an elite using NPC rules, because as a PC, he would have used his level 1 daily, action point for level 5 Rage Strike, dealing 14d6+stuff, followed by charging another party member for 3d6+stuff, and then 2d6+stuff (bravura), killing the paladin, then bringing another so close to death that three other characters similiarly statted would clean up.

That combat would have been decided by the initiative rolls, and not by the tactics over the course of the battle. Thank -goodness- I used the elite rules, which ended in one less encounter, one less daily per monster, which with two less monsters, ended with 6 less daily powers and 6 less encounter powers destroying the group.

 

[DracoSuave]

No. For one thing, they died easier, so while round one was tough, round 3 was easier. They also managed to miss with their dailies fairly regularly. For instance, the NPC cleric (who was supposed to help give the others staying power) died in 1 1/2 rounds, having only taken one or two actions.



It was an enemy party of adventurers, and their gear consisted of what was expected in the adventure's reasure parcels, plus some of what they had managed to steal from the PCs earlier.



That's odd, I don't recall you at our table that night.



The players work well together, and know their own characters better than I know every in-and-out of the NPCs. If this is a concern, it will be a concern in any combat where there is a large group of enemies operating with a single hive mind.

I had tactics decided beforehand (as advised by the DMG), and modified those on the fly, just like I do with every fight.

Also, the stats are not equivalent, because the PCs have much better gear, and gear is a large chunk of your effectiveness in 4e. The NPCs are using items from the PCs' wish list, so unless you've carbon copied a PC, that item is less than optimal for the NPC.



That's a good start for a theory. Have you run any experiments? Without actual data, I'm afraid I'm going to have to continue to believe my own experiences over your beliefs.



Not according to the books or my experiences. Again, have you tried this, or do you just have it in your head that it won't work?

The NPC design steps in the DMG say they're there to save you work, not because using PC stats is unbalanced. When there is a tool that can create NPCs with a few clicks, the reason for the DMG guidelines goes away. They're still useful, and mandatory if you want a full blown NPC from most of the races in the DMG. In fact, I prefer them to a one-click randomizer because I'm more likely to get powers that I want to play with, and combinations between NPCs that will be challenging. Plus they're easier to manage because you're not tracking very many things that don't fit in a power line (like feats, paragon path abilties, etc.).

But that doesn't make the other methods of NPC generation wrong, just different. I'll definitely create full blown NPCs again in the future, because I like the added feats, paragon, and epic abilities that DMG NPCs don't get.

The only problem with it, is that a level 1 PC used as an NPC is not a level 1 monster. Once you figure that out and get it all sorted, it's not a bad way to go. The problem is eyeballing it with their sub-par hps, but over-par damage outlay and accuracy.

 

[James McMurray]

Well, if you create using the PC generator, you generate 5 PCs.

These PCs are going to be using the same rules as -your- PCs and therefore should have equivalent stats and abilities.

Except for different gear, and assuming they're the same level.

All things considered, that would make them equivalent to the party members in terms of attacking and defensive power. That means that the battle becomes a coinflip, with any error in this accounted for by the PC's ability to create more streamlined characters over yours, or vice versa.

Thank god our games are more than just numbers. I'd hate to play in a campaign where any similarly powered challenge was a coin flip. Where's the tactics? The decision making? The intelligent use of terrain?

The PCs would have a chance to down the NPCs, and the NPCs would have an equal chance to defeat the PCs. You know this because if you switched the character sheets of the NPCs with the PCs, you'd have an equivalent scenario, with the players having the same level characters, against the same level antagonists.

That would be true if "same level" equalled "same combos, synergies, gear, and everything else that makes one group of numbers different from another." It doesn't.

A coinflip battle is considered a -very- hard battle in 4e rules.

I agree. The battle I ran was actually intended to be worse than a coin flip, as it wasn't just the oppsing NPCs, it was also over 20 of their minions. To top it off, the PCs had been captured and had very little of their gear, with the NPCs using some of their choicer items.

Anecdote is not the singular of data.

When did I say it was? I have one point of data, you have 0. I'll go with my personal experiences every time over someone else's guesses. If you have some data to privide, then your theory can grow beyond a simple thought exercise.

If you ran a series of battles like that, with NPCs created using the same rules as PCs, it will mostly tend towards defeat of the PCs about 50 percent of the time.

Why? The NPCs (assuming it isn't my scenario) are weaker than the PCs. They have less gear, and its not as appropriate to their needs. Therefore their to hits and defenses will be lower than the similarly levelled PCs. They have no action points. Therefor they will lose more often.

Ask yourself this? How many times has a PC outlayed as much damage -in a single round- as they have hps, or more? If this happens often, then equivalent NPCs can have the same expectations.

I've only run epic level games, and I don't think it's ever happened barring action points and crits. Since these NPCs don't have action points, that leaves them needing an incredibly lucky crit, which is unlikely to do enough damage because their inferior gear won't give as many extraz damage dice.

As an example: Take the encounter I had above, a level 5 barbarian and a level 5 bravura warlord. The character with initiative moved forward, and attacked the barbarian. Thank god I was running him as an elite using NPC rules, because as a PC, he would have used his level 1 daily, action point for level 5 Rage Strike, dealing 14d6+stuff, followed by charging another party member for 3d6+stuff, and then 2d6+stuff (bravura), killing the paladin, then bringing another so close to death that three other characters similiarly statted would clean up.

Why does your non-elite have an action point? And why are you assuming that his lower attack bonuses automatically hit the PCs' higher defenses?

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

Toe to toe, it will never be a coinflip for decision because of die rolls, terrain and tactics. However, it IS balanced and it works. A bit deadly, but keeps combat succinct and quick.

For those running low magic, low fantasy games it's a goddsend. Converting MM foes is a huge chore; facelifting them works, but combats are still too long and "grindy".