NPC Tactics and CR ratings..

[PrinceZane]

When dealing with "more advanced" tactics and techniques of NPC's, when do you (DM) generally start implementing things other than just trying to kill the PC?

In essence what I mean is: If the boss of a campain were say... a wizard/sorc, when would you start getting into detect magic and then try to dispel their nice pretty glowing eq instead of directly trying to kill them with say a fireball or something?

I've finally got my group into starting to think and use strategy (not 100%, but definitely better than it was), and I feel it's time for me to step up and begin to start sundering weapons, disarming their precious robes and rings and such (still not quite sure why you can disarm a ring... *shrugs* c'est la vie). However, I keep debating that they're just now starting to be able to upgrade to a +1 or get that nice decent glove of ogre power or whatever.

Out of the, umm, 7ish people in the party, their collective level is 7 (7.4 I think).
Is it too soon?

Also, I'm having a little bit of a problem putting them up against mobs. According to the DMG, they should be able to take 1 CR 7 since that's their level. But due to the large party, they just stomp a mudhole in it... ditto mostly for 1 CR 8. Is there any type of formula or anything to adjust how many mobs to put at them. I was thinking like 1 CR 8 and 1 CR 6 or something, but wasn't sure if it was too rough. I want things to be a callenge, but I want them to have a chance. It's more fun to gloat about roasting them in a "fair" fight instead of overwhelming odds.

 

[Rystil Arden]

When dealing with "more advanced" tactics and techniques of NPC's, when do you (DM) generally start implementing things other than just trying to kill the PC?

In essence what I mean is: If the boss of a campain were say... a wizard/sorc, when would you start getting into detect magic and then try to dispel their nice pretty glowing eq instead of directly trying to kill them with say a fireball or something?

I've finally got my group into starting to think and use strategy (not 100%, but definitely better than it was), and I feel it's time for me to step up and begin to start sundering weapons, disarming their precious robes and rings and such (still not quite sure why you can disarm a ring... *shrugs* c'est la vie). However, I keep debating that they're just now starting to be able to upgrade to a +1 or get that nice decent glove of ogre power or whatever.

Out of the, umm, 7ish people in the party, their collective level is 7 (7.4 I think).
Is it too soon?

Also, I'm having a little bit of a problem putting them up against mobs. According to the DMG, they should be able to take 1 CR 7 since that's their level. But due to the large party, they just stomp a mudhole in it... ditto mostly for 1 CR 8. Is there any type of formula or anything to adjust how many mobs to put at them. I was thinking like 1 CR 8 and 1 CR 6 or something, but wasn't sure if it was too rough. I want things to be a callenge, but I want them to have a chance. It's more fun to gloat about roasting them in a "fair" fight instead of overwhelming odds.

Your party has nearly twice as many people as the expected baseline (expected: 4 characters), so their encounter level is effectively about 2 higher than usual. That means that they should stomp CR 7 or CR 8 encounters. In fact, a CR 9 encounter will probably only take out 1/4 of their resources.

 

[PrinceZane]

OOOOO!!!! So I could start throwing some CR 9.. maaaybe a 10?

I was thinking about 2 or so higher, but I was afraid that the DC for the PCs to save against the NPCs stuff might be too high. But if a CR 9-10 is what I should shoot for, then that makes me a very happy DM (I've been waiting to throw a few things at them )

 

[Plane Sailing]

Best help I've seen is Grim Tale's Chi-Ro method.

Chi: calculate "power" of enemies by adding the sum of thei squares of their CR.

Ro: calculate "power" of party members by adding the sum of the squares of their levels

Chi / Ro gives the expected amount of party resources used up,
1-(Chi / 2Ro) gives the expected chance of party success or survival

A party of four 7th level characters would have a "power" of 196, but 7 7th level characters is a "power" of 343.

A single CR7 foe would have a power of 49, Chi/Ro = .25 or 25% resources of 4 7th level characters, but only 14% for 7 7th level characters.

There is a little more to the system to use it properly, but the Chi/Ro method is very handy for quickly estimating the relative power of disparate groups of characters and foes.

Well worth playing around with IMO.

 

[Chrynoble]

that is amazingly helpful, thanks

 

[PrinceZane]

Hmm..

I've never seen that formula to figure out the relation between the two... I like that alot. Makes good sense... seems to work.... I'm sold

 

[Meeki]

Alright, first of all the amount of resources a party will use depends on who is playing the PC and how the DM runs the game, such as keeping the party adventuring ALL day not allowing them the option to leave and rest when ever they feel like. The CR system is more of a recommendation than a rule set in stone. A CR 12 can be weak if the DM does not know how to take advantage of the abilities/skills/etc. When dealing with a party of 7 lvl 7 characters, depending on the composition of the party, I would probably be using CR 10's 11's and 12's. These will give the PC's a challenge, force them to use strategy (hopefully without metagaming too much), and give the DM some fun. One thing to remember as a DM is YOU have the power to change things, if you feel the monster is too powerful take away a few HD's, which will lower saves, ability DC's, Baseattack, etc.
If you dont feel comfortable doing this then use a CR9 or so and be sure to pay attention to SKILLS, FEATS, and ABILITIES that creatures have. Many times have I experienced a situation where my party would utterly decimate something near double our level because the DM doesn't pay attention to the abilities a creature possesses such as moving silently and hiding. Also, as the DM know what the party is good at; can they dish out alot of damage fast? or perhaps they take some time doing damage but are very resiliant ( lots of healers? high ac?) Know your party's strengths and weaknesses. Another thing is to utilize KNOWLEDGE SKILLS of both the monsters and party members. DO NOT let party members metagame, if they do penalize them. MAKE the PC's use knowledge nature checks against those giants or knowledge dungeoneering against abberations, this will 1. allow for someone to know the weakness of a creature 2. make the knowledge skills actually useful in combat 3. keep characters from metagaming. If no one has appropriate knowledges then the creature may be tougher, if the party keeps RP"ing they know nothing of it then give them more xp by treating the creature as a higher CR. Whatever you do DO NOT take away xp for someone having the appropriate knowledges, making a high skill check, preparing the party against the creature, and watching the party smash the creature into a billion pieces.

Remember as the DM YOU have the final say, do not be afraid to modify enemies. If you want them to escape then have them escape. Do what you want then make it fit the rules later, that way you dont have to spend time figuring out if the rules allow it if the PC's dont even question it. The beauty of the D20 system is the flexibility of the rules. Don't be afraid to kill off a PC or two also, they are lvl 7 should have enough resources to raise dead at some temple.

I notice you used the terrible word "sunder" in your first post. Now sundering an opponents weapon is a sure way to piss them off but lets think of this logically. Would PC or NPC want sunder? It destroys their potential loot, and, in the case of the honorable, is very dishonorable to obliterate a warrior's weapon when they might want to be buried with it later. I can see creatures that care little of loot have sunder, but there are two things that piss PC's off, killing their characters and taking their loot.

 

[Shuffle]

I notice you used the terrible word "sunder" in your first post. Now sundering an opponents weapon is a sure way to piss them off but lets think of this logically. Would PC or NPC want sunder? It destroys their potential loot, and, in the case of the honorable, is very dishonorable to obliterate a warrior's weapon when they might want to be buried with it later. I can see creatures that care little of loot have sunder, but there are two things that piss PC's off, killing their characters and taking their loot.

Well, sundering is a valid tactic, albeit a very mean one.

Disarm is much nastier IMO really.
"Pick it up, I dare you. Oopps, you tripped and then dropped your weapon again, you poor klutz"

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In our experience, if your players have any tactical savvy, numbers tend to favor the party more than the straight extrapolation.

We figure you can safely triple the number of creatures encountered when you double the number of PCs.

If your party is fresh, they should be able to handle, oh, 5 Hill Giants in a fair fight. I kid you not.

 

[HeavyG]

OOOOO!!!! So I could start throwing some CR 9.. maaaybe a 10?

I was thinking about 2 or so higher, but I was afraid that the DC for the PCs to save against the NPCs stuff might be too high.

For that reason, it would probably be better to send them against 2 CR 7 or 8 monsters than one CR 9 or 10 monster. It doesn't mean that you can't do it, of course, but a single CR 10 monster might be very easy or very tough, depending on whether it has area effect or save or die attacks or not.