NPC Tactics and CR ratings..

[sullivan]

...However, I keep debating that they're just now starting to be able to upgrade to a +1 or get that nice decent glove of ogre power or whatever.

Out of the, umm, 7ish people in the party, their collective level is 7 (7.4 I think).
Is it too soon?....

The problems with presenting a challenge certainly doesn't have anything to do with the PCs being overly rich in magic items.

EDIT: By this I mean to say that 7th or 8th seems a little late to be picking up your first permanent magic weapon. I believe typical loot progression would mean starting to see +2 weapons around that level or shortly after. You world of course can vary, but adjust for CRs accordingly. This could be an artifact of loot getting split 7 ways?

The party size though is going to give you problems. With that many actions inbetween a single opponent acting the party is going to quickly overwhelm pretty much any true single CR 7.

Like HeavyG suggests, I would definately look at multiple bogies for encounters (three CR 7 is likely about right for a good stiff opponent, or maybe a CR 7 and a couple CR 6's). Gauging a challenge with a single creature vs. a large party is tricky and risks a TPK on a couple bad rolls, or at lease a fairly regular death to one or more members. The big guys just hit so hard that if they catch one member in their sights for a full attack or two that PC is rolling stabilization checks, or worse.

Also with a party that is relatively under equiped you need to run through mock senarios yourself before hand to make sure they are actually going to have a decent chance of doing enough damage to kill (or at least fleeing).

The downside is that combat sequences are going to be large complicated affairs. Such are the perils of running a large table.

 

[PrinceZane]

Lots of good feedback, thanks...

And yeah... I mentioned sunder/disarm... I've even thought of a mean dispel magic or 2 on the items...

The bad thing is, somehow I've managed to take them out a fairly decent amount of times, and although they have quazidecent eq, they're very low in funds due frequent deaths. But it seems, when they're fresh, they can take the world... 2nd battle is a little queezy, and by the 3rd battle i'm taking out 1-2 of them.

I give them free reign on whatever they want to do as far as regrouping, just stop adventuring for however long... However, one of the guys is...well... has the int of a badger RL and keeps getting either arrested, or the militia hunting him. Wasting the resources they do have in fines etc.

Maybe I'm just doomed to have a weird and twisted group never to be on any type of stability

 

[sullivan]

Lots of good feedback, thanks...

And yeah... I mentioned sunder/disarm... I've even thought of a mean dispel magic or 2 on the items...

I just want to double check here, you realise that Dispel Magic does not destroy a permanent enchanctment? Only supresses it temorarily for 1d4 rounds. The spell that toasts permanent item enchantments is the ever dreaded infamous Disjunction, and it is a much higher level spell that is not likely to be cast by anyone in the CR 7 range of opponents.

The bad thing is, somehow I've managed to take them out a fairly decent amount of times, and although they have quazidecent eq, they're very low in funds due frequent deaths. But it seems, when they're fresh, they can take the world... 2nd battle is a little queezy, and by the 3rd battle i'm taking out 1-2 of them.

The death of 1 or 2 is common in a large party that over reaches or gets into tough battles. Especially if there are strategic cowards or foolhardy "heros" among them that manage to cause damage to be spread unevenly.

I give them free reign on whatever they want to do as far as regrouping, just stop adventuring for however long... However, one of the guys is...well... has the int of a badger RL and keeps getting either arrested, or the militia hunting him. Wasting the resources they do have in fines etc.

Ahh, the picture begins to come into focus....

Maybe I'm just doomed to have a weird and twisted group never to be on any type of stability

Doomed like a lottery winner. Rich in comedic entertainment beyond your capacity to laugh.

 

[robberbaron]

Don't forget that, according to the DMG, 5% of encounters should be up to 5 levels above the party. Chuck in an occasional CR12 gribbly, or a bunch of CR9s.

Does you good to see a party run away once on a while.

For my money, PCs always hit well above their weight. My group are average level approx. 5.5 and regularly throw CR8 or 9 encounters at them. Some they take without breaking stride, others take a bit more effort, but I've only killed 1 PC. And he was just plain unlucky to take a critical in the face.

 

[reanjr]

When dealing with "more advanced" tactics and techniques of NPC's, when do you (DM) generally start implementing things other than just trying to kill the PC?

Whenever it makes sense. If the opponent knows about the PCs and has an Intelligence of 8+, they're going to make decent tactical decisions as well as strategic ones. To a certain extent, though, there is an understanding involved between my players and myself. If they don't want to be divined and out-techniqued, then they should refrain from similar tactics. If they start scrying on their opponents, then they're fair game for being scryed upon, for instance. I also will intercede with such things when the players become abusive the mechanics while avoiding realism. For instance, my players assumed that when one character died, they could just split up that character's loot amongst themselves then have that player make a new character of equal level with level-appropriate equipment. I don't think so.

Also, I'm having a little bit of a problem putting them up against mobs. According to the DMG, they should be able to take 1 CR 7 since that's their level. But due to the large party, they just stomp a mudhole in it... ditto mostly for 1 CR 8. Is there any type of formula or anything to adjust how many mobs to put at them. I was thinking like 1 CR 8 and 1 CR 6 or something, but wasn't sure if it was too rough. I want things to be a callenge, but I want them to have a chance. It's more fun to gloat about roasting them in a "fair" fight instead of overwhelming odds.

7 level 7 characters is almost two entire level 7 parties. Throw in a CR 7 and a CR 6 opponent together for the appropriate encounter level. Reward XP based on separate creatures (don't try to combine them into a CR 8 encounter, for instance, when rewarding XP as this will be really slow progression). In my experience, a party is DESIGNED to mop the floor with an appropriate CR. Party Level +3 is about the right CR for an actual difficult encounter (this holds true better at high levels).

 

[Jack Simth]

Also, I'm having a little bit of a problem putting them up against mobs. According to the DMG, they should be able to take 1 CR 7 since that's their level. But due to the large party, they just stomp a mudhole in it... ditto mostly for 1 CR 8. Is there any type of formula or anything to adjust how many mobs to put at them. I was thinking like 1 CR 8 and 1 CR 6 or something, but wasn't sure if it was too rough. I want things to be a callenge, but I want them to have a chance. It's more fun to gloat about roasting them in a "fair" fight instead of overwhelming odds.

Try this doodad

 

[PrinceZane]

I love all this feedback, very helpful and such.

The thing with the sunder and such, I think they've got the idea of "we have a weaponsmith and mend spells, we can fix it no prob" as far as the destroying loot goes.

I think I'm going to go with that Chi/Ro or whatever it was. That seemed very nice...

Oh, and whatever "this little doodad" was in the above reply, I haven't got to check it out yet, due I'm actually running late for work, but I'll do so as soon as I get home.