D&D 5E (2024) NPCs, and the poverty of the core books

[Lanefan]

Why? Why can’t there be things in the world the players do not know about until they meet it, that would require years of training under a master of that technique in order to be able to do?

Once they've met that technique, though, it becomes a known thing in the setting (and one might sometimes ask, quite reasonably, how and why it wasn't known before, depending on how it's introduced) and thus theoretically a player's next character might have undergone said years of training and learned that technique.

For example if the PCs go up against the Monks of Kai Shan (who are all Human) and those Monks have cool fighting abilities never seen before, even if the Kai Shan Monks were previously completely isolated from the outside world (unlikely). their secrets are out now; never mind a player might want to have her next character be a Kai Shan Monk.

So, sure, you get to surprise the PCs once. But after that, whatever you surprised them with becomes part of the setting. Kind of like introducing a brand new spell to the setting.

 

[Lanefan]

What? Lol. "The GM is not allowed to adjust thing for balance because the players deserve to have the unbalanced thing too!"

Get it right before you introduce it, not after. Once you've had an NPC cast it in play, you've set and locked in the precedent.

The thing that works for a single use encounter is not necessarily a thing that works for a PC.

But then, I avoid this by not giving PCs access to these things at all. Ever. They are ancient lore long lost to time that the crypt thing know sonly by virtue of its tangled memory. No, Lanefan, you may not have that spell.

A crypt thing isn't a PC-playable species, thus it's irrelevant what it can do.

But an NPC Elf casting a spell the PCs have never seen, that's different. That spell becomes part of the game the moment it's cast against the PCs, and adjusting it between the time the NPC uses it and the time the PCs get to use it is the ssort of shenanigans that give DMs a bad name.

Put another way: you just can't design things like a new arcane spell for a single-use encounter, because by intentional design arcane spells are intended to be learnable and repeatable and thus will never be just single-use. Therefore, it's incumbent on the DM to get that spell sorted and balanced before the NPC ever casts it at the PCs.

 

[Lanefan]

This is true, but I think it usually is either is because of one of the other things I mentioned, or it is to be combined with one or more of the other things.

Even in the example you gave the party got a string of bad rolls in a row, first with the fighter failing the save and then following it up by hitting and killing another PC every single round.

Just the one bad roll of the failed save, really. His odds of hitting the other PCs were pretty good, and those he didn't kill on the first swing were more interested in trying to kill the real enemy in hopes that doing so would bring their Fighter back to his senses. Problem was, their path to the real enemy was blocked by their ex-ally.....

 

[EzekielRaiden]

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Are you sure? I have to be skeptical, because I'm telling white lies if I make arguments based on my personal experience, so the fact that this is achievable at all must be subject to skepticism.

 

[Reynard]

Get it right before you introduce it, not after. Once you've had an NPC cast it in play, you've set and locked in the precedent.

A crypt thing isn't a PC-playable species, thus it's irrelevant what it can do.

But an NPC Elf casting a spell the PCs have never seen, that's different. That spell becomes part of the game the moment it's cast against the PCs, and adjusting it between the time the NPC uses it and the time the PCs get to use it is the ssort of shenanigans that give DMs a bad name.

Put another way: you just can't design things like a new arcane spell for a single-use encounter, because by intentional design arcane spells are intended to be learnable and repeatable and thus will never be just single-use. Therefore, it's incumbent on the DM to get that spell sorted and balanced before the NPC ever casts it at the PCs.

The game designers don't even get spells right.

This idea that somehow an arcane spell is sacrosanct (irony!) the moment it appears in a PC playable species only (weird) repertoire is fundamentally flawed. The GM is not there to provide you the perfect experience. They are there to play the game with you. And it is, above all things, a game.

 

[Remathilis]

This, however, I'm not fine with unless Force Missile specialist was an available option for players to choose for their PCs during roll-up (or as a later feat or ability or whatever).

I'm fascinated with this. There is no ability an NPC can have that a PC cannot? No Vistani with the gift of plot device prophecy, no dragonslayer or witch finder with abilities to hunt certain monsters at the cost of others? All offshoot subraces (drow, derro or Cynidicean) must be PC options? There are no ancient magics beyond the ability of PCs, no ancient artifacts they cannot use or weild? Unless it's tied to a specific monster type, everything from anti paladins to witches is in the table for PCs?

Seems wild gonzo.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The game designers don't even get spells right.

This idea that somehow an arcane spell is sacrosanct (irony!) the moment it appears in a PC playable species only (weird) repertoire is fundamentally flawed. The GM is not there to provide you the perfect experience. They are there to play the game with you. And it is, above all things, a game.

That is definitely one way to look at it. I really strive for more from my enjoyment of the hobby than just the actual playing of the game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm fascinated with this. There is no ability an NPC can have that a PC cannot? No Vistani with the gift of plot device prophecy, no dragonslayer or witch finder with abilities to hunt certain monsters at the cost of others? All offshoot subraces (drow, derro or Cynidicean) must be PC options? There are no ancient magics beyond the ability of PCs, no ancient artifacts they cannot use or weild? Unless it's tied to a specific monster type, everything from anti paladins to witches is in the table for PCs?

Seems wild gonzo.

Why wouldn't it be, at least in theory? A particular PC may never be in a position to learn any given ability, but theoretically they could under the right circumstances.

 

[nevin]

I wasn't being snarky, was pointing out that a high difficulty encounter has a chance of wiping a party even in 5E. There's no point in making rules for anything higher because at that point so much depends on planning, luck, and whether or not the party knows when discretion is the better part of valour.

Well my phone chopped off part of my reply. My original reply was supposed to include that IME 5E even at that difficulty is very unlikely to kill anyone off. I'll add the caveat Unless you are playing low levels 1 to 4th.

 

[Stormonu]

Well my phone chopped off part of my reply. My original reply was supposed to include that IME 5E even at that difficulty is very unlikely to kill anyone off. I'll add the caveat Unless you are playing low levels 1 to 4th.

We must play very different D&D. I've seen 15th level 5E parties get wiped within a handful of rounds.