Why is that NPCs are presented in the way that they are. It has been the method of choice for a few editions now and I don't fully understand why. Assassins are CR8, Nobles are CR1/8, Mages are CR6. It seems like what would be useful, as either a reference document or a manual, is a full listing of NPCs with multiple CRs. Start with the PC classes. Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Warlock, Bard, etc. at CR 1/8, CR 1/4, CR 1, CR 3, etc. Then move on to the non-PCs: Nobles, Merchants, Gladiators, Necromancers.... at CR 1/8, CR 1/2, etc. etc. etc. Even contemplating such a project myself, I am struck by how little advice there is on monster building. Surf's blog has some great data, but its more fact, less process. Am I the only person this kind of resource would be useful for? It is mostly for encounters with other people, rather than monsters. Is that the problem? We only fight battle droids because otherwise we're bad people?
D&D 5E NPCyclopedia
- Thread starter whaddon
- Start date
LordEntrails
Hero
NPCs are not PCs, and many of them do not have PC classes.
In my worlds, PC classes represent heroes, people with unusual abilities, people who have an innate ability to do extraordinary things.
Don't get tied up with categories, a NPC who is a Noble might be a CR 1/8, or they might be a CR 15. These are just trying to tell you something about the role they play in society (Noble) and their combat effectiveness (CR 1/8 or 15).
Think of a merchant, the guy who runs the supply store. How good would they be in a fight? Probably not much, they don't have the abilities of a fighter, or cleric, or rogue and they don't have a PC class. Now, think of the retired soldier who runs a tavern. He might, maybe, have a few levels of Fighter class, or maybe he was just a soldier.
So, to me, what would be useful when I need an NPC?
- The role they play in society
- The combat effectiveness (challenge rating) (see below)
- Description (age, sex, race, height, weight, hair color, etc)
- Personality - helpful, self-righteous, dumb, quiet etc
- Quirks - something to make them memorable, a phrase, a scar, smell, habit etc
Combat effectiveness, most NPCs (not arch-villians or combat adversaries) don't require much combat detail. As they are not there to be fought or to fight. So just use the stats out of the DM for that challenge rating. Don't give them special attacks, traits etc, just give them the standard HP, AC, attack and damage off the table for the CR you assigned.
And, if you hadn't noticed, the things above that I listed, except for combat effectiveness, can be gotten from most any of the numerous NPC generators out there.
In my worlds, PC classes represent heroes, people with unusual abilities, people who have an innate ability to do extraordinary things.
Don't get tied up with categories, a NPC who is a Noble might be a CR 1/8, or they might be a CR 15. These are just trying to tell you something about the role they play in society (Noble) and their combat effectiveness (CR 1/8 or 15).
Think of a merchant, the guy who runs the supply store. How good would they be in a fight? Probably not much, they don't have the abilities of a fighter, or cleric, or rogue and they don't have a PC class. Now, think of the retired soldier who runs a tavern. He might, maybe, have a few levels of Fighter class, or maybe he was just a soldier.
So, to me, what would be useful when I need an NPC?
- The role they play in society
- The combat effectiveness (challenge rating) (see below)
- Description (age, sex, race, height, weight, hair color, etc)
- Personality - helpful, self-righteous, dumb, quiet etc
- Quirks - something to make them memorable, a phrase, a scar, smell, habit etc
Combat effectiveness, most NPCs (not arch-villians or combat adversaries) don't require much combat detail. As they are not there to be fought or to fight. So just use the stats out of the DM for that challenge rating. Don't give them special attacks, traits etc, just give them the standard HP, AC, attack and damage off the table for the CR you assigned.
And, if you hadn't noticed, the things above that I listed, except for combat effectiveness, can be gotten from most any of the numerous NPC generators out there.
I guess I run things differently. I expect the PCs to encounter other rangers, other bards, wizards, and warlocks. As far as I can tell, the PCs are the only existing adventuring group in the entire world, since, with Monster Manual NPCs, I cannot build a group of their level and classes. I can make full characters for every NPC, but it seems like it would be useful (only to me, apparently) to have stats for a much wider variety of people.
As for nobles being CR 15... that's a great thought, but the only way to get such a creature is to level up a 1/8 CR Noble. Right?
As for nobles being CR 15... that's a great thought, but the only way to get such a creature is to level up a 1/8 CR Noble. Right?
hawkeyefan
Legend
You can make NPCs using the PC creation rules, or some of those rules, or none. It's up to you.
Personally, I have major NPC villains that I have written up just as detailed as a PC would be, with classes and levels and so on. But doing that for every NPC would take way too much time.
For lesser villains I use stat blocks for pre-existing monsters/characters like those found in the PHB and Monster Manual....Evil Priest, Necromancer, etc. I find the published modules are great for that. Princes of the Apocalypse has wide variety of enemies that could be tweaked just a bit to seem totally new to your players.
For others, I'll design my own Monster Manual style entry based on abilities that fit what I'm going for. Usually I'l start with a base entry....so if I want a Minitaur Champion, I take the Minotaur, and then beef him up with some bonuses to hit, damage, and saves as well as some more HP and a cool ability or two.
I don't think there's one way you have to do this. Do whatever works for you and your game.
Personally, I have major NPC villains that I have written up just as detailed as a PC would be, with classes and levels and so on. But doing that for every NPC would take way too much time.
For lesser villains I use stat blocks for pre-existing monsters/characters like those found in the PHB and Monster Manual....Evil Priest, Necromancer, etc. I find the published modules are great for that. Princes of the Apocalypse has wide variety of enemies that could be tweaked just a bit to seem totally new to your players.
For others, I'll design my own Monster Manual style entry based on abilities that fit what I'm going for. Usually I'l start with a base entry....so if I want a Minitaur Champion, I take the Minotaur, and then beef him up with some bonuses to hit, damage, and saves as well as some more HP and a cool ability or two.
I don't think there's one way you have to do this. Do whatever works for you and your game.
ExploderWizard
Hero
How about building an NPC from scratch to whatever challenge level you desire then designate it as a noble. There, that was easy. Don't get too hung up on the labels the MM gives to things.
I think that it is better to create a few rare NPCs yourself than have all NPCs follow a class/level structure such as 3E had. How many 15th level commoners do you really need anyway? By my reckoning anyone who is a 15th level anything isn't very common, so the very idea of 15th level farmers is a bit silly.
I only build combat stats for NPCs as needed. Some of them get PC class abilities if they kind of fit as member of a class, others have strictly NPC abilities, and some get a sprinkling of both. I start out with a sketch of roughly how tough I want them to be then use the DMG guidelines to keep their relevant stats in the ballpark of where I chose their target CR. I don't build these NPCs according to a rigid system.
Think of an NPC as a bucket full of stuff. Determine the general shape and toughness of the bucket then fill it up without overflowing it. Done. If you enjoy creating piles of stats in advance to be used later then its easy to do.
LordEntrails
Hero
I didn't mean to imply that the PC's are the only fighters, ranger, clerics, etc in the world.
As for creating a 15th level noble, I wouldn't spend the time to level up such a character from level 1. Just find something similar and adapt it. i.e. this guy is probably the king of a large empire, he's an experienced tactician, he can melee, he can lead people, etc But, do I need combat stats for him? Probably not, again, his personality, beliefs, description etc is probably more important.
As for creating a 15th level noble, I wouldn't spend the time to level up such a character from level 1. Just find something similar and adapt it. i.e. this guy is probably the king of a large empire, he's an experienced tactician, he can melee, he can lead people, etc But, do I need combat stats for him? Probably not, again, his personality, beliefs, description etc is probably more important.
DM_Jeff
Explorer
It's funny because when 4th Ed started making NPCs more like monster stats and not built like PC's I lost my mind, and now for whatever reason in 5E I completely embrace it and as a DM am thankful.
So, any NPC that will not be involved in any fight whatsoever I don't even want or use stats for anymore. However there are non-monster villains that I would like more varied stats on, and would relish such a book or project.
Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts unlocked a "Villain Codex" portion I'm looking forward to, and there are a couple of NPC PDF's from DriveThruRPG.
So, any NPC that will not be involved in any fight whatsoever I don't even want or use stats for anymore. However there are non-monster villains that I would like more varied stats on, and would relish such a book or project.
Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts unlocked a "Villain Codex" portion I'm looking forward to, and there are a couple of NPC PDF's from DriveThruRPG.
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Li Shenron
Legend
We have a lot of options, but I am still concerned how can I gauge the results, for example how can I estimate the CR or XP of such NPC.
I admit I have neglected the DMG so far compared to the PHB and MM, but I am still confused.
For example, if I would like to make an NPC using the PC rules, and I have a target CR, what character level should it have? It's a simple enough question, is there a simple enough answer in the DMG?
Nah, because the monster building rules don't care about all the different ways that classes are put together - the main thing that matters for CR is the maximum possible damage output for a single three round fight, which is different for everyone. Don't think there is any way they could have given a guideline, at least one that would be accurate.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Pure PC classed NPCs do not translate well to CR.
Check out the DMG page 274. There you will find a quick CR reference chart. Take anything you want to figure a CR for and calculate its defensive (AC and HP) rating and offensive (Attack bonus and DPR) rating and average them. All of these factors will effect the others. For spell or similar abilities use save DC instead of attack bonus when calculating offensive CR.
Just a quick glance at the hit point column will tell you that character level does NOT equal CR. An average CR 1 has over 70 hit points. If you assign a CR 1 to a 1st level fighter its going down really fast compared to any other monster of its supposedly equal CR.
Thats why I make NPCs mostly as monsters adding in some PC abilities and accounting for their effects in the overall offensive/defensive CR calculations.
Li Shenron
Legend
Yeah but all this sounds like 5e does an appalling job at supporting something as simple as making a Wizard villain of the wanted level, which is a super-common thing in a RPG.
Because I have maybe 2 or 3 ready-made options like the Mage (CR6) and the Archmage (CR12) and that's it. There are at least 18 more CRs to cover, but I have to add more spells one by one and figure out the CR, with guidelines that don't work beyond a very few additions. If I wanted a CR10 Wizard, what do I do?
All in all, the best I can think about is to just create a Wizard (or Cleric or Druid, depending on the story) using the PC rules (not caring much for precision, just a gross design), throw it at the PCs without caring about estimating the CR, and cross my fingers that with bounded accuracy it shouldn't be outrageously off...
hawkeyefan
Legend
I've never found CR to be all that consistently accurate since they inteoduced it, so I've always used trial and error to come up with threats for my PCs.
There's nothing wrong with PCs facing a threat that's beyond them or beneath them from time to time.
There's nothing wrong with PCs facing a threat that's beyond them or beneath them from time to time.
Li Shenron
Legend
From the DMG:
- chapter 4 explicitly suggest that one way (out of 3) to create an important NPC is to create it using the PC rules with class and level
- in that section it tells you: "Challenge Rating. An NPC built for combat needs a challenge rating. Use the rules in chapter 9 to determine the NPC's challenge rating, just as you would for a monster you designed."
- in chapter 9 there's a "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating" table. This belongs to the "Creating Quick Monster Stats" paragraph, which says to look to the next section "Creating a monster stat block" if a more complete stat block is wanted. It might be somewhat usable, but it will be hard to retro-fit the damage output, and the Hit Point column is clearly totally unsuitable for a Wizard (and even quite off for a Fighter too!).
- the next section "Creating a monster stat block" actually refers back to the "Creating Quick Monster Stats" table :/
- in addition, it seems that both this (very long) section and the following (short) section "Monsters with Classes" pretty much sum it up by telling you that at the end you figure out the CR. But that's my starting point, not the end!
- chapter 4 explicitly suggest that one way (out of 3) to create an important NPC is to create it using the PC rules with class and level
- in that section it tells you: "Challenge Rating. An NPC built for combat needs a challenge rating. Use the rules in chapter 9 to determine the NPC's challenge rating, just as you would for a monster you designed."
- in chapter 9 there's a "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating" table. This belongs to the "Creating Quick Monster Stats" paragraph, which says to look to the next section "Creating a monster stat block" if a more complete stat block is wanted. It might be somewhat usable, but it will be hard to retro-fit the damage output, and the Hit Point column is clearly totally unsuitable for a Wizard (and even quite off for a Fighter too!).
- the next section "Creating a monster stat block" actually refers back to the "Creating Quick Monster Stats" table :/
- in addition, it seems that both this (very long) section and the following (short) section "Monsters with Classes" pretty much sum it up by telling you that at the end you figure out the CR. But that's my starting point, not the end!
Yes, I agree. They could have added 1 paragraph entitled "NPCs built using PC rules" and a chart showing PC class by level and how it equates to CR.
All in all, the CR system is a complete disaster. Absolutely inexcusable imo. In 39 years of DMing D and D through all editions, it has never been so difficult to create balanced encounters. 5e overall I would rate 8 out of 10, but the CR system is an EPIC fail.
I suppose most people aren't bothered by it, since, in my experience, most people play vs rather easy CRs anyway, so if u make a mistake, its not gonna be a problem. But my group plays for the challenge, so we have less margin for error.
hawkeyefan
Legend
Do you ever design encounters from which your PCs should flee? Or do you design every encounter as a challenge that can be overcome?
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
It's easy enough to make a wizard villain of the wanted level - give them the required AC, HP, DPR, and attack bonus/save DC, and you're done!
If you want to build it as precisely equal to a wizard PC, it'll be a little hairier. Entirely possible, but it'll involve more research to find out how a wizard can get to those values, and a flexibility to make it whatever level it needs to be to hit those numbers.
You can probably do that; it's probably fine.
shoak1 said:
I, for one, am happy they used that space for other purposes.
I wouldn't object to an MM of NPCs, but I think the needs for an NPC in an encounter are different from the needs for a PC, so I don't think a literal built-like-a-PC NPC would be the most useful thing to me.
Yes, what's your point?
What tools did you use to balance pre-3e encounters?
XP and HD were the main tools. And monsters weren't as complicated, so it was much easier to judge their "CR".
Back in the day, more people seemed to be on somewhat similar pages re how difficult encounters should be. In 5e there is a HUGE disparity between what people consider to be a proper challenge. Back in 1e/2e days, gamers were more "hardcore' and wanted tough challenges. Nowadays you have more casual gamers used to respawn video games where you dont have to be that careful to get through an encounter.
The problem w/5e's CR system is that it is based on flawed mathematical formulas rather than on real gaming experience. Its like they hired a guy to do the math and assign the ratings w/o having some senior playtesters check it over to make sure it made sense.
And then the decision to make NPCs different than PCs is....bad. In my world, and many, NPCs and monsters are encountered just as frequently as each other, or at least 30% of encounters. There is a 5e MM I can refer to in order to get monsters, but just a few handfulls of pages of npcS. So I have to create the vast majority of them from scratch - that's a time sink. Not to mention then having to figure out their CR
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