Why is that NPCs are presented in the way that they are. It has been the method of choice for a few editions now and I don't fully understand why. Assassins are CR8, Nobles are CR1/8, Mages are CR6. It seems like what would be useful, as either a reference document or a manual, is a full listing of NPCs with multiple CRs. Start with the PC classes. Barbarian, Ranger, Fighter, Warlock, Bard, etc. at CR 1/8, CR 1/4, CR 1, CR 3, etc. Then move on to the non-PCs: Nobles, Merchants, Gladiators, Necromancers.... at CR 1/8, CR 1/2, etc. etc. etc. Even contemplating such a project myself, I am struck by how little advice there is on monster building. Surf's blog has some great data, but its more fact, less process. Am I the only person this kind of resource would be useful for? It is mostly for encounters with other people, rather than monsters. Is that the problem? We only fight battle droids because otherwise we're bad people?
D&D 5E NPCyclopedia
- Thread starter whaddon
- Start date
LordEntrails
Hero
NPCs are not PCs, and many of them do not have PC classes.
In my worlds, PC classes represent heroes, people with unusual abilities, people who have an innate ability to do extraordinary things.
Don't get tied up with categories, a NPC who is a Noble might be a CR 1/8, or they might be a CR 15. These are just trying to tell you something about the role they play in society (Noble) and their combat effectiveness (CR 1/8 or 15).
Think of a merchant, the guy who runs the supply store. How good would they be in a fight? Probably not much, they don't have the abilities of a fighter, or cleric, or rogue and they don't have a PC class. Now, think of the retired soldier who runs a tavern. He might, maybe, have a few levels of Fighter class, or maybe he was just a soldier.
So, to me, what would be useful when I need an NPC?
- The role they play in society
- The combat effectiveness (challenge rating) (see below)
- Description (age, sex, race, height, weight, hair color, etc)
- Personality - helpful, self-righteous, dumb, quiet etc
- Quirks - something to make them memorable, a phrase, a scar, smell, habit etc
Combat effectiveness, most NPCs (not arch-villians or combat adversaries) don't require much combat detail. As they are not there to be fought or to fight. So just use the stats out of the DM for that challenge rating. Don't give them special attacks, traits etc, just give them the standard HP, AC, attack and damage off the table for the CR you assigned.
And, if you hadn't noticed, the things above that I listed, except for combat effectiveness, can be gotten from most any of the numerous NPC generators out there.
In my worlds, PC classes represent heroes, people with unusual abilities, people who have an innate ability to do extraordinary things.
Don't get tied up with categories, a NPC who is a Noble might be a CR 1/8, or they might be a CR 15. These are just trying to tell you something about the role they play in society (Noble) and their combat effectiveness (CR 1/8 or 15).
Think of a merchant, the guy who runs the supply store. How good would they be in a fight? Probably not much, they don't have the abilities of a fighter, or cleric, or rogue and they don't have a PC class. Now, think of the retired soldier who runs a tavern. He might, maybe, have a few levels of Fighter class, or maybe he was just a soldier.
So, to me, what would be useful when I need an NPC?
- The role they play in society
- The combat effectiveness (challenge rating) (see below)
- Description (age, sex, race, height, weight, hair color, etc)
- Personality - helpful, self-righteous, dumb, quiet etc
- Quirks - something to make them memorable, a phrase, a scar, smell, habit etc
Combat effectiveness, most NPCs (not arch-villians or combat adversaries) don't require much combat detail. As they are not there to be fought or to fight. So just use the stats out of the DM for that challenge rating. Don't give them special attacks, traits etc, just give them the standard HP, AC, attack and damage off the table for the CR you assigned.
And, if you hadn't noticed, the things above that I listed, except for combat effectiveness, can be gotten from most any of the numerous NPC generators out there.
I guess I run things differently. I expect the PCs to encounter other rangers, other bards, wizards, and warlocks. As far as I can tell, the PCs are the only existing adventuring group in the entire world, since, with Monster Manual NPCs, I cannot build a group of their level and classes. I can make full characters for every NPC, but it seems like it would be useful (only to me, apparently) to have stats for a much wider variety of people.
As for nobles being CR 15... that's a great thought, but the only way to get such a creature is to level up a 1/8 CR Noble. Right?
As for nobles being CR 15... that's a great thought, but the only way to get such a creature is to level up a 1/8 CR Noble. Right?
hawkeyefan
Legend
You can make NPCs using the PC creation rules, or some of those rules, or none. It's up to you.
Personally, I have major NPC villains that I have written up just as detailed as a PC would be, with classes and levels and so on. But doing that for every NPC would take way too much time.
For lesser villains I use stat blocks for pre-existing monsters/characters like those found in the PHB and Monster Manual....Evil Priest, Necromancer, etc. I find the published modules are great for that. Princes of the Apocalypse has wide variety of enemies that could be tweaked just a bit to seem totally new to your players.
For others, I'll design my own Monster Manual style entry based on abilities that fit what I'm going for. Usually I'l start with a base entry....so if I want a Minitaur Champion, I take the Minotaur, and then beef him up with some bonuses to hit, damage, and saves as well as some more HP and a cool ability or two.
I don't think there's one way you have to do this. Do whatever works for you and your game.
Personally, I have major NPC villains that I have written up just as detailed as a PC would be, with classes and levels and so on. But doing that for every NPC would take way too much time.
For lesser villains I use stat blocks for pre-existing monsters/characters like those found in the PHB and Monster Manual....Evil Priest, Necromancer, etc. I find the published modules are great for that. Princes of the Apocalypse has wide variety of enemies that could be tweaked just a bit to seem totally new to your players.
For others, I'll design my own Monster Manual style entry based on abilities that fit what I'm going for. Usually I'l start with a base entry....so if I want a Minitaur Champion, I take the Minotaur, and then beef him up with some bonuses to hit, damage, and saves as well as some more HP and a cool ability or two.
I don't think there's one way you have to do this. Do whatever works for you and your game.
ExploderWizard
Hero
How about building an NPC from scratch to whatever challenge level you desire then designate it as a noble. There, that was easy. Don't get too hung up on the labels the MM gives to things.
I think that it is better to create a few rare NPCs yourself than have all NPCs follow a class/level structure such as 3E had. How many 15th level commoners do you really need anyway? By my reckoning anyone who is a 15th level anything isn't very common, so the very idea of 15th level farmers is a bit silly.
I only build combat stats for NPCs as needed. Some of them get PC class abilities if they kind of fit as member of a class, others have strictly NPC abilities, and some get a sprinkling of both. I start out with a sketch of roughly how tough I want them to be then use the DMG guidelines to keep their relevant stats in the ballpark of where I chose their target CR. I don't build these NPCs according to a rigid system.
Think of an NPC as a bucket full of stuff. Determine the general shape and toughness of the bucket then fill it up without overflowing it. Done. If you enjoy creating piles of stats in advance to be used later then its easy to do.
LordEntrails
Hero
I didn't mean to imply that the PC's are the only fighters, ranger, clerics, etc in the world.
As for creating a 15th level noble, I wouldn't spend the time to level up such a character from level 1. Just find something similar and adapt it. i.e. this guy is probably the king of a large empire, he's an experienced tactician, he can melee, he can lead people, etc But, do I need combat stats for him? Probably not, again, his personality, beliefs, description etc is probably more important.
As for creating a 15th level noble, I wouldn't spend the time to level up such a character from level 1. Just find something similar and adapt it. i.e. this guy is probably the king of a large empire, he's an experienced tactician, he can melee, he can lead people, etc But, do I need combat stats for him? Probably not, again, his personality, beliefs, description etc is probably more important.
DM_Jeff
Explorer
It's funny because when 4th Ed started making NPCs more like monster stats and not built like PC's I lost my mind, and now for whatever reason in 5E I completely embrace it and as a DM am thankful.
So, any NPC that will not be involved in any fight whatsoever I don't even want or use stats for anymore. However there are non-monster villains that I would like more varied stats on, and would relish such a book or project.
Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts unlocked a "Villain Codex" portion I'm looking forward to, and there are a couple of NPC PDF's from DriveThruRPG.
So, any NPC that will not be involved in any fight whatsoever I don't even want or use stats for anymore. However there are non-monster villains that I would like more varied stats on, and would relish such a book or project.
Kobold Press' Tome of Beasts unlocked a "Villain Codex" portion I'm looking forward to, and there are a couple of NPC PDF's from DriveThruRPG.
Last edited:
Li Shenron
Legend
We have a lot of options, but I am still concerned how can I gauge the results, for example how can I estimate the CR or XP of such NPC.
I admit I have neglected the DMG so far compared to the PHB and MM, but I am still confused.
For example, if I would like to make an NPC using the PC rules, and I have a target CR, what character level should it have? It's a simple enough question, is there a simple enough answer in the DMG?
Nah, because the monster building rules don't care about all the different ways that classes are put together - the main thing that matters for CR is the maximum possible damage output for a single three round fight, which is different for everyone. Don't think there is any way they could have given a guideline, at least one that would be accurate.
ExploderWizard
Hero
Pure PC classed NPCs do not translate well to CR.
Check out the DMG page 274. There you will find a quick CR reference chart. Take anything you want to figure a CR for and calculate its defensive (AC and HP) rating and offensive (Attack bonus and DPR) rating and average them. All of these factors will effect the others. For spell or similar abilities use save DC instead of attack bonus when calculating offensive CR.
Just a quick glance at the hit point column will tell you that character level does NOT equal CR. An average CR 1 has over 70 hit points. If you assign a CR 1 to a 1st level fighter its going down really fast compared to any other monster of its supposedly equal CR.
Thats why I make NPCs mostly as monsters adding in some PC abilities and accounting for their effects in the overall offensive/defensive CR calculations.
Similar Threads
