Nudity in RPG books?

[jester47]

BTW, IMO nudity works in the "as encountered" sense. That is a drawing of a nymph or people on a nude beach is cool (heck naked people on any beach might be cool).

Example:

A drawing of a "warrior maiden" with her chainmail top ripped open by some beast and showing no apparent injury as a result is not cool. This is comical and a sort of exposition rather than conveying whats really going on. However, showing a "warrior maiden" who did have a chain shirt that was ripped open and a garmet to protect against chafing, and an open wound on her chest might be a little graphic but a better depiction, even if naughty bits were showing because thats is more true to what it would be like and connects you to her emotion and pain. You think "wow, that really messed her up! But shes still going!" Rather than "hey! Boobies!"

Acceptable nudity: http://classweb.ghc.edu/art100/images/delacroix.jpg

the woman and the fact that she is topless is not the point of the art. That is what separates porn from art in my book. Art is good.

Aaron.

 

[Mr. Lobo]

Your comment leads to a very good question, one that I think some people (and not others) think is being asked here:

1: Does nudity have a place in the D&D Core rules?

2: Furthermore, does nudity have a place in the Core rules of any RPG?

3: Does nudity have a place in any RPG supplement where the topic is NOT healthy sex, sex in general, sexual perversions, or sex of any sort?


For #1, I say no: I revisit my supposition that it creates barriers between players, and between players and their PRG material. I would have a far harder time justifying the 3E core books had there been naked peasants working in fields in it. I know of at least two or three people who either would not have played or been allowed to play if there were.

For #2, I say no: same reasoning. If it includes it, a company is narrowing their market to a certain portion of it. If it's the sement they are focusing on (BoEF, F.A.T.A.L. or B.o.V.D. for examples) then that's fine.

For #3, I say yes - someone mentioned the medieval peasants thing as an example, or in a work about savage peoples in a jungle setting - that's the author's and reader's choice. Ditto for works where this IS the focus - otherwise, the work would be too tame for the subject matter it seeks to portray. However, the work will also be clearly marked as such, either by topic, or by some form of notification by the vendor. It doesn't take a lot of perception to know what the Book of Erotic Fantasy will be like without even cracking the cover.

Okay.

But all of these answers to your points are based on a publisher's point of view. Someone who is in the game genre to make money by selling a lot of product by expanding the market.

But role playing from a players perspective is a luxury. Something to do to pass the time in an enjoyable manner.

Personally, I don't give a dang about a publishers well being. If they make product I want to spend my hard earned cash on then I buy it for my own enjoyment. Not for the publishers well being.

What I like best about the OGL is that you can use the core rules to make extension products. For the people who design games as a hobby they can make all the hard core extensions/expansions (with all kinds of nudity and other stuff*) that they want with a rules set that a lot of people use and make them available at RPGNow or elsewhere so that other people can enjoy their creations. Or not as they see fit. With the PDF market, an enthusiast can make any kind of RPG core rules relatively cheaply (I think. What's a ballpark figure for costs of making a PDF and publishing at RPGNow for example?) and make it available as described above.

This approach may not exapand the RPG market per se but it can expand the gaming aspect of RPG's by introducing new content.

But the key is the difference between trying to publish RPG's or rules sets to make money by trying to please a whole bunch of people(which I think is quite humorous and the topic of another thread possibly) vs publishing as a hobby. For one's own pleasure and enjoyment.

This follows off of Biggus Geekus's point made earlier. If you really want it find a way to do it.

* bolded to show that I'm trying to keep on topic somewhat.

Mr. Lobo

 

[Zappo]

ByronD -> Fair enough, and actually the not-need for justification is something I strongly agree with. What I'm curious about is what the rules of the game have to do with why or why not something should be drawn? You draw the setting, not the rules, and the setting has a lot of things that the rules don't care about.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I voted that it was fine as long as it is non-sexual in nature but then again that is me and I'm 31 years old. Looking at it from a more global scale I'd have to vote against including it. I got into D&D when I was 8 years old and thank god I got into it with the Basic set rather than going straight into AD&D otherwise my parents would have thrown the books out as soon as they saw the demon on the cover of the DMG and the topless mermaid in the appendix section. If leaving the nudity out makes the game more accessable to a larger audience then I can definitely go with leaving it out as it really isn't that important. However, over the years I've seen so much great fantasy artwork that included nudity and I wouldn't mind seeing artwork of that quality (Frazzetta, Vallejo, and Royo to name a few) in some of our roleplaying books. Perhaps a happy medium would be to follow White Wolf's lead and have a different label put out by the same publisher which is restricted to mature audiences... you could put out books with whatever artwork you want. Destiny's Price (for Mage) was published under the Black Dog label and rightly deserved it because of the subject matter. It was purely a fluff book, support for a more mature chronicle and wasn't cosidered necessary to run a basic game of Mage but it was still published for those who wanted it. Perhaps WOTC or some of the other 3rd party publishers might follow White Wolf's lead and start publishing a line of books that cater to mature readers but protect younger readers.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

Or do you mean that nudity, unlike every other subject, requires additional justification? If so, why?

No, I think there are lots of subjects in D&D that are of dubious necssity. If I saw a picture of a paladin saying orc children because they are destined to be evil or a barbarian covered in entrails and ripping out the spine of an evil minion, I'd question that artwork as well. I felt the opening chapter artwork of The Book of Vile Darkness required additional justification, which it pretty much had with the book's opening and closing statements to say nothing of the big warning sticker.

And again, I think if people really want this stuff they should publish. If it's handled well, I might even buy it. But I'm at a loss to see why it's remotely important to include just in the same way I'm at a loss to see why it would be important to include goblin farting.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

the setting has a lot of things that the rules don't care about.

Well, yeah. If it was a Book of Erotic Fantasy game or even a Charlie's Angels game I wouldn't be batting an eyelash. I probably wouldn't buy the book, but seduction is a big component of those settings.

 

[Dinkeldog]

While I will rarely post a "me, too" post, I think you've caught the essence of the difference and what is (or should be) acceptable nudity. All this and you presented it tastefully and tactfully. Bravo!

BTW, IMO nudity works in the "as encountered" sense. That is a drawing of a nymph or people on a nude beach is cool (heck naked people on any beach might be cool).

Example:

A drawing of a "warrior maiden" with her chainmail top ripped open by some beast and showing no apparent injury as a result is not cool. This is comical and a sort of exposition rather than conveying whats really going on. However, showing a "warrior maiden" who did have a chain shirt that was ripped open and a garmet to protect against chafing, and an open wound on her chest might be a little graphic but a better depiction, even if naughty bits were showing because thats is more true to what it would be like and connects you to her emotion and pain. You think "wow, that really messed her up! But shes still going!" Rather than "hey! Boobies!"

Acceptable nudity: http://classweb.ghc.edu/art100/images/delacroix.jpg

the woman and the fact that she is topless is not the point of the art. That is what separates porn from art in my book. Art is good.

Aaron.

 

[Zappo]

BiggusGeekus -> Ok, I understand better now. I believe that nudity, like everything else, should be used where it's appropriate and makes sense, and not otherwise. So we less or more agree on that. I also think that nudity, like everything else, may have a (marginal) place in a product where it is not central, like the adventure I'm writing. To help parents, the publisher could use a warning label. I like good classification, I just dislike limitations.

 

[Henry]

Okay.

But all of these answers to your points are based on a publisher's point of view. Someone who is in the game genre to make money by selling a lot of product by expanding the market.

I don't see it as a "publisher's point of view" (I'm not published, for one thing) but it's the point of view of a gamer who wants to be able to teach other gamers how to play without throwing up a wall in the form of artwork or writing that is seen as inappropriate. The second I show a coworker a D&D book that contains even incidental nudity, the doors slam shut and the barriers are up. The second I show a parent and their 10-year-old a book with full frontal, is the minute they turn off the idea that D&D is a healthy pastime, for better or worse.

 

[el-remmen]

a barbarian covered in entrails and ripping out the spine of an evil minion, I'd question that artwork as well.

I SO want to see that! I do my best to describe the results of combat in gory detail (see my story hour) so that players have immersion and never forget what kind of nasty work they are really doing.

-- Had a demon rip the head off a character and then scoop out the brains from the neck side and eat them Nemm