Number of releases for AD&D2nd and AD&D1st

[Maggan]

Hello!

At several times during my stay at EN World I have noticed a discussion that crops up every once in a while; has 3e passed 2nd edition when it comes to number of products released? Some people have a gut feeling that is the case, and even cite it as "evidence" that a new edition has to be in the works.

In my mind, just looking at my bookshelf, I would say "no". I don't have as much 2e as I do 3e, but I also know that I don't really have a lot of 2e stuff to begin with.

So I figured I'd try to look into this. What I did was simply to go to www.hitpointe.com and compile a list of the stuff they've got listed for AD&D1e and AD&D2e. Straightforward enough, it would seem.

Not really ... Hitpointe lists some stuff that is not books, and some books that are art books, and sometimes they mix 1e with 2e (Forgotten Realms) so the data is not totally 100% accurate. I think it does give a good indication though. But also some books for 3e seems to be missing. Or I'm confusing books announced with books released.

Also, some of you will cry foul for me not including D&D minis. I'm just not sure how to do that, what with boosters and the collectible aspect of it. Also I don't know how many different products are out and I couldn't find any info from Hitpointe. And I didn't go to Wizards' site. But if you think they should be counted for D&D3e, just add 15 or so to the total (I'm just not sure how many series they've done). Although I have counted tiles as a D&D product, not a D&D minis product. Hey, this is not a thesis! You won't get academic standards here!

Come to think of it, I haven't included KenzerCo or Paizo either ... hmmm ... well, I'm betting it won't matter in the end. Their total output is about 30 books or so.

Note that the following numbers are only AD&D1e, AD&D2e and D&D3e.

AD&D1e = 175 products
AD&D2e = 769 products
D&D3e = 116 products

So, even though I'll allow for mistakes in compilation and such, it seems as if D&D3e still hasn't surpassed AD&D1e, and that it will take about 2 years before they do (assuming 30 releases per year which fits the current schedule).

According to these numbers, it will take D&D3e close to 22 years to reach the sheer volume of AD&D2e with todays pace of releases.

Let's be generous and add in D&D minis and my estimate of 15 products, and let's say 10 more each year (a couple of booster series and some colossal gargantuans and maybe some extras). Also lets knock down AD&D2e to 700 to make sure I don't add stuff that shouldn't be there. A conservative estimate, if you will.

Then it would take D&D3e only a bit over 14 years to surpass AD&D2e. And just over a year to surpass AD&D1st.

The numbers are not totally accurate, but they give enough of a guidance that I with confidence can say that AD&D1st and D&D3e has roughly the same amount of product released up to date, and that AD&D2nd has about five times as much stuff released as either of the others.

I hope someone finds this information interesting. I sure did.

/M

EDIT: Also, the times I've done business with Hitpointe, my experiences have been very good.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I guess you'll have to take into account all the d20 stuff out there. If you count that stuff (or even the d20 fantasy stuff intended to be used with the D&D core rules, not the stand-alone stuff), you'll easily go beyond 1.000 titles.

And before you say that they don't have anything to do with Wizards, consider this:

Many of these titles are niche titles, often sold as PDF only. Stuff like "101 magic rings". That means Wizards won't have to jump into every niche, and they generally do stuff that's either new (like Magic of Incarnum), or will be sold a lot (Complete Warrior)

It's similar with campaign-specific stuff: Now that Wizards won't do 100 different campaigns for D&D, they have less stuff to do - just the general line as well as their two campaign settings. There's lots of other companies out there making lots of other settings (I have, for example, lots of stuff for FR, Ravenloft, Midnight and Rokugan - and only the FR stuff's from Wizards!)

 

[Davelozzi]

Yeah, stuff was coming out at a way faster rate in the 2e era; I'd say about 5-6 game products* a week compared to 2-3 now.

*for me that means rulebooks, supplements, & adventures...not novels, art books, minis or other tie-in games. And of course that's WotC only. Lots of third-party products are worthwhile but I wouldn't count them as D&D stuff in this sense.

 

[Maggan]

I guess you'll have to take into account all the d20 stuff out there. If you count that stuff (or even the d20 fantasy stuff intended to be used with the D&D core rules, not the stand-alone stuff), you'll easily go beyond 1.000 titles.

My take is no, I don't take into consideration d20 stuff. For the AD&D1st I haven't taken into account the Mayfair stuff, or the Judges Guild stuff, for example. I'm not sure about the grey market for D&D-compatible stuff during 2e either. There were stuff out there, but I just don't know how much.

Also, when this is discussed it is almost always within the context of D&D books released by WotC compared to books released by TSR, so that's what I'm looking at. The number of d20 titles is big, for sure (I have about a couple of hundred myself), but that's not official D&D with the logo on it and all.

I could be persuaded to include licensed Ravenloft and Dragonlance, since they originated as D&D settings, but apart from that, I feel that official D&D and d20 are seperate things as far as this comparison is concerned. I think I find support for this in the general market place as well. Most D&D gamers buy official material, so it's the official releases that are important to them.

The basic premis still stands: WotC has not released more official D&D books for 3e than TSR did for 2e. By a long shot.

You could add: Yeah, but WotC released the OGL, so they are in part responsible for the thousands of books compatible with D&D3e, to make the picture more complete.

/M

 

[Glyfair]

So I figured I'd try to look into this. What I did was simply to go to www.hitpointe.com and compile a list of the stuff they've got listed for AD&D1e and AD&D2e. Straightforward enough, it would seem.

Much better sources to use would be The Acaeum and TSR Archive.

 

[Ourph]

At several times during my stay at EN World I have noticed a discussion that crops up every once in a while; has 3e passed 2nd edition when it comes to number of products released? Some people have a gut feeling that is the case, and even cite it as "evidence" that a new edition has to be in the works.

I think most of these comments are directed toward rules supplements rather than setting supplements or adventures. IOW, if it doesn't contain rules it doesn't "count" as far as those assertions are concerned. Of course, that line is blurred at this point since most 3e setting supplements contain a lot in the way of new rules (PrCs, Feats, etc.). I think if you compared only products containing significant rules additions between 2e and 3e the numbers would be much closer.

 

[Maggan]

I think most of these comments are directed toward rules supplements rather than setting supplements or adventures. IOW, if it doesn't contain rules it doesn't "count" as far as those assertions are concerned. Of course, that line is blurred at this point since most 3e setting supplements contain a lot in the way of new rules (PrCs, Feats, etc.). I think if you compared only products containing significant rules additions between 2e and 3e the numbers would be much closer.

That could be the case. I'll see if I find time to do that, I've got a busy week ahead. My initial theory is still no, D&D3e has not surpassed AD&D2e in regards to "pure" rulebooks. It has passed AD&D1e though, if you want to make that comparison.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I'm not really that sure about D&D3e and AD&D2e when it comes to "pure" rulebooks. I forgot the early softcover splatsbooks of 3e, for instance. I tried to do a quick estimation but ran into the problem of what to count as a "rules supplement". A quick analysis says that for pure rulebooks, the two editions are about equal, unless you add Monster Manuals and Monster Compendiums to the mix as well. Then AD&D2e pulls ahead yet again.

Even though there are several ways to cut the numbers it seems as if the basic premise stands: WotC is not churning out more stuff for 3e than TSR/WotC did for 2e.

/M

 

[RFisher]

There's so many ways you could slice comparisons. So many factors to consider.

• number of pages
• size of print runs
• cover price (adjusted for inflation of course)
• margin
• rules v. settings v. adventures

More products but with lower page count, smaller print runs, & lower prices might be roughly equivalent to fewer products with higher page count, larger print runs, & higher prices.

 

[buzz]

Ryan Dancey has confirmed that TSR was releasing something like 110 products a year during the heyday of the 2e era; this is part of the reason they were dying. A massive release schedule based on no market research whatsoever.

I don't think trying to slice up the releases by any other metrics really matters. WotC has simply not released anywhere near the amount of product, total page count included, that TSR did for 2e. This is why they're still in business.

I also think the d20STL/OGL is kind of a moot point, depending on what argument is being made.