Numbers vs. roleplaying

[Alloran]

Okay, I'm sure there've been all sorts of debates on this and other boards, and I'm another noob-type looking for the same thing. Now, I'm just asking for OPINIONS here, and I'm not trying to start any sort of war or anything. And if this is the wrong forum for this, well... I don't think it is. ^_^

Is the point of d20 a math game (which stats do what where and how well) or a roleplaying game? The obvious answer is roleplaying, as it is-in fact- a roleplaying game, but seriously. How many DMs have players that think the only point is to be the best at whatever they do?

In my groups, I reward roleplaying and story completion (when there is one) much higher than I reward combat monkeying. Now, this is for two reasons, a) because I really suck at describing combat, and b) because I like telling a stroy moreso than I like just encounter after encounter.

~Alloran

 

[FireLance]

Nice, non-controversial topic you've selected.

For me, role-playing is first and foremost a game. It's something I do to have fun. If it isn't fun for me, I should be doing something else.

That said, there are many ways of having fun. I can have fun twinking out an outrageously powerful Human Paragon 3/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin 3/Fist of Raziel 10. I can also have fun playing that character as an insufferably noble knight who is too trusting for his own good and gets the short end of the stick once too often as a result.

To me, roleplaying is not numbers or roleplaying. It's numbers and roleplaying. You can do it as one or the other, but you're missing out on something if you do so. It becomes either wargaming or "let's pretend".

Roleplaying is thinking up a fun character, defining him in game terms, playing according to the rules, and giving him a personality that goes over and beyond the numbers.

Others may, of course, disagree.

 

[Dark Jezter]

 

[ThirdWizard]

Sometimes, my players can't crunch numbers to save their lives and occasionally they have trouble roleplaying out of a paper bag.

So obviously its an excercise in futility.

 

[vulcan_idic]

Mmmmm!! Fresh Gagh!!

While I would agree that "roleplaying" is preferable and a good story makes the game, working the numbers is not neccesarily a bad goal or contrary to the primar goal of playing a character. The darwininan concept of "the survival of the fittest" is driven home to many of us in subtle social ways. The competition for dates and so on in high school, competing for jobs later... all of these things impress upon us the importance of being "the best" - how much more so for theoretical "heroes" who, one might think, are the "fittest"... so it does make some sense psychologically. So as long as it doesn't detract from the enjoyment of the group as a whole, I see no problem with this natural, instinctive reaction. If it does however the line must be drawn, and clearly drawn, for the sake of everyone.

 

[LostSoul]

I like fun games. Everything else takes a back seat. So sometimes that means role-playing, sometimes it's a good hack and slash, etc.

 

[Buttercup]

Is the point of d20 a math game (which stats do what where and how well) or a roleplaying game?

The point is whatever each individual group decides it is.

 

[Humanophile]

Remember those lovely roleplaying-only games you played as a child? Remember how smoothly they ran whenever you needed a conflict resolution system?

"I shot you. You're dead."
"Am not. You missed."
"I hit. Are too."
"Am not."
"Are too."
(ad infinitum)

...okay. Maybe that wasn't a good idea. Maybe rules do serve a purpose.

As a rule, we play RPG's because we want to be someone exceptional. Someone extraordinary, important, and yes, someone powerful. And to do that, the rules need to reflect the character's advantage over your average schmoe. We've already seen that rules need a purpose, and if the rules disagree with the setting, the setting suffers where the conflict.

So while we all agree that point-whoring to create a cardboard combat character is a bad thing, such a position is a straw man in any case. Players groom their characters to prominence in certain areas to feel special and exceptional in those realms. And if that provides some degree of min/maxing, great. Those minned areas are a perfect opportunity for other characters to shine, and to give the characters a reason to band together.

Sometimes a character as a mathematical exercise is fun, but I'll rarely play him in a long-term game. But after that, most players try to squeeze maximum efficiency out of their characters in order to play the aforementioned exceptional individual. (There might also be some degree of competitiveness, either between players or against the world. In the former case, see if you can steer people away from overlapping specialties. In the latter, it's the DM's fault. Stop throwing in NPC's to overshine the PC's and throwing up arbitrary, unrealistic obstacles. Let specialists be specialists. They'll find appropriate challenges for their skills sooner enough.)

 

[Zappo]

"Numbers" - especially combat - aren't necessarily opposite to roleplaying. Combat is a highly dramatic occurrence; people die, people kill each other, your friends are in danger... lots of roleplaying occasions. If someone turns off his roleplaying brain whenever dice are being rolled, that's his problem.

 

[The Amazing Dingo]

Allow me to clarify my experience and point of view in this conversation...

...firstly, I have never played in a live, table-top RPG. Never. All of my gaming experience (about 9-10 years worth (Oh my God, am I getting *that* old?!)) is from playing online on both Chat-Based Games and Message Based Games.

To this degree, role-playing has always been my primary concern. Combat on the tactical level is much more time-consuming and difficult online then in real life (from everything I've been understanding and seeing, thanks to these boards). There are programs out there for game maps, miniatures, etc. for online gaming, but it still chews up a great deal of time in an effort for all of the PCs and the DM to figure the programs out and then go through and then stop and correct any mistakes made, etc.

Hence, I've found the solution to be to focus on PC interaction, investigation, and character growth more so then combat. That isn't to say that we don't have combat, but when we do, it's usually a fight with an important PC or NPC and a plot advancement (we never do a random battle and battles to "chew up resources" do not occur as often as it should, but its something we've come to accept). 95% of our time is spent role-playing and that is what I enjoy.

On the flip side of this coin, after reading all of the great story hours here, the whole tactical aspect of D&D has been greatly captivating me. I would love to sit down and play a game on the table just for that experience. I use to love the tactical RPGs (ie - Final Fantasy Tactics, Tactics Ogre) and now I see how D&D can truly be like that from time to time. It has been something that has grabbed my fascination, but role-playing is still at the top of my list for role-playing.