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OA's while phasing...
- Thread starter Omertalvendetta
- Start date
weem
First Post
Hasn't come up from a monster before, that I recall - only player activated things (I think it has come up just a few times) so I had not considered it really
I suppose when the time came (fighting a wraith, or anything else with Phasing) we would have looked it up and discovered this, but there has not been a reason to yet - I just know when the players did it, I assumed there was no OA's, which is clearly wrong.
Good info, as I said!
jgsugden
Legend
Just a reminder: When you are moving while phasing, you must end your movement in an unoccupied space. Not in a wall. Not in another being. In an empty space. Unless you are passing through a "thin wall" while phasing (so that the square you enter when moving is an empty square), you can't really shift through a surface when phasing (unless you can shift multiple squares).
Samir
Explorer
Actually, only creatures occupy spaces, as per PHB p283:
Phasing says you specifically must end your movement in an unoccupied space, and walls do not occupy spaces. (They fill them. p284)
DracoSuave
First Post
Logic Fail, defeat by reductio ad absurdum:
Hockey players are athletic.
Using your logic:
Other athletes cannot be athletic, because obviously, only hockey players are athletic.
Defeat by counter example:
Some conjurations occupy squares. Said conjurations are not creatures.
Samir
Explorer
Conjurations only occupy squares if the power summoning it specifically says it does. (PHB p.59)
PHB#59 said:
Guardian of Faith said:
If you can find something that says specifically "obstacles occupy squares," then I'll agree with you. Otherwise, we can only infer they do not by RAW.
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yesnomu
First Post
Why? If you can move through walls (and presumably stay on the same level), why not floors? What makes a floor of stone more special than a wall of stone?
I believe that for phasing to work at all, you must be able to choose what you can and can't move through. Otherwise, non-flyers would instantly fall into the center of the earth as soon as they started phasing. If you allow that a phasing creature can sink into the ground at all (and I can't see why you wouldn't), then it's just a matter of choosing a stair-shaped portion of ground to be solid for you, and walking up it.
DracoSuave
First Post
Actually, the fact that conjurations have to explicitly be told they don't occupy a square infers that otherwise, they would.
Let's extend the logic tho.
Phasing allows you to pass through obstacles and other creatures.
Obstacles are considered elements of an encounter in the same vien as traps and hazards--see p 27 of the DMG. Walls are not on the same order as traps and hazards, and therefore are not obstacles unless they can be overcome through some sort of skill test.
Therefore, phasing does not allow you to pass through them, and whether they occupy a square is irrelevant; a phasing creature cannot enter them and therefore cannot end their movement in them.
See? That doesn't make sense. A 'the rules only say precisely what they say' argument doesn't really work here. A more reasonable argument is that, yes, a physical element of blocking terrain that does occupy the square its in.
Walls being what they are tho, there's nothing in the rules that say walls do or do not occupy the square. That leaves it for the DM to decide 'Yes this wall does occupy this square.' Some walls might be of the sort phasing can end in, some walls might not be. This is entirely the realm of DM discretion.
Let's extend the logic tho.
Phasing allows you to pass through obstacles and other creatures.
Obstacles are considered elements of an encounter in the same vien as traps and hazards--see p 27 of the DMG. Walls are not on the same order as traps and hazards, and therefore are not obstacles unless they can be overcome through some sort of skill test.
Therefore, phasing does not allow you to pass through them, and whether they occupy a square is irrelevant; a phasing creature cannot enter them and therefore cannot end their movement in them.
See? That doesn't make sense. A 'the rules only say precisely what they say' argument doesn't really work here. A more reasonable argument is that, yes, a physical element of blocking terrain that does occupy the square its in.
Walls being what they are tho, there's nothing in the rules that say walls do or do not occupy the square. That leaves it for the DM to decide 'Yes this wall does occupy this square.' Some walls might be of the sort phasing can end in, some walls might not be. This is entirely the realm of DM discretion.
jgsugden
Legend
"While phasing ... and can move through obstacles and other creatures, but it must end its movement in an unoccupied space."
The way that it is written, you can pretty clearly tell that the intent was to say, "Hey, you can pass through walls and creatures, but you can't end movement in them."
If you try, you can find ways to read it another way. You can even argue from a technical perspective that you're more righterest in your argument that it should be read another way, but it really seems that if the technically righterest way to read it is another way, it was just sloppy writing.
Besides: PCs really don't want creatures to be able to end movement in walls. A creature with reach, phasing, and an attack that allowed movement as part of the standard action attack would be an autoparty kill if smartly played. Move out and attack and then hide back in the wall where you're invincible. Wait for party to end readied actions waiting to get you (they have to rest sometime) and repeat. You might also need tremorsense or some other way to know what the party is doing, but it would be nigh impossible to stop.
The way that it is written, you can pretty clearly tell that the intent was to say, "Hey, you can pass through walls and creatures, but you can't end movement in them."
If you try, you can find ways to read it another way. You can even argue from a technical perspective that you're more righterest in your argument that it should be read another way, but it really seems that if the technically righterest way to read it is another way, it was just sloppy writing.
Besides: PCs really don't want creatures to be able to end movement in walls. A creature with reach, phasing, and an attack that allowed movement as part of the standard action attack would be an autoparty kill if smartly played. Move out and attack and then hide back in the wall where you're invincible. Wait for party to end readied actions waiting to get you (they have to rest sometime) and repeat. You might also need tremorsense or some other way to know what the party is doing, but it would be nigh impossible to stop.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
I had thought that a previous thread on phasing had indicated that even if a creature can stop inside a wall, it couldn't attack out of it, as it would have no LOS (line of sight) or LOE (line of effect).
Hmm... not the one I was looking for, but it does deal with phasing and LOE, but into a wall rather than out of one: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/274823-phasing-strike.html
Okay, here's the one I was looking for: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/274018-phased-creature-ends-movement-wall.html
Hmm... not the one I was looking for, but it does deal with phasing and LOE, but into a wall rather than out of one: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/274823-phasing-strike.html
Okay, here's the one I was looking for: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-discussion/274018-phased-creature-ends-movement-wall.html
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