OA's while phasing...

[Mort_Q]

... you have obviously planned for the party to be TPK'd, and you could have accomplished it much more easily by...

It's not about easy, it's about interesting.

 

[yesnomu]

Phasing pretty explicitly doesn't give you any extra movement capabilities other than the ability to move through obstacles, which means you're still stuck moving on the regular old 2D grid. A burrow speed or a flight speed would be needed for you to do anything involving moving on the Z axis, absent stairs or a ramp or something.

No, it isn't really logical at all. I don't particularly care for the idea of separating incorporeal and phasing into two different abilities in the first place, let alone separating them from flight, precisely because it creates this weird rules situation where a wall and the floor seem to function differently.

You don't need any special movement capabilities to fall, and the floor can certainly be considered an obstacle. I don't see how you couldn't let someone fall through the floor if they wanted, and the rest of my argument follows logically from that.

 

[DracoSuave]

You don't need any special movement capabilities to fall, and the floor can certainly be considered an obstacle. I don't see how you couldn't let someone fall through the floor if they wanted, and the rest of my argument follows logically from that.

Because falling isn't a movement type, and phasing only allows you to move through obstacles, not treat obstacles as precipitous terrain.

 

[Nichwee]

As a "how does it work", I would treat phasing as "floating with momentum but still under some gravity" (90% of your mass phases out - and the remainder slips through the space between molecules). You want to go through a wall: you move to it, phase and drift though it under momentum.

This gives us the following issue with ducking into the ground and out again:
How do you then give yourself upward momentum if you don't solidify to push off the ground once you phase down into it (basically how can you change direction while 'phased')? And how did you gain the downward momentum to enter the ground (jump up a bit then phase as you landed)?

This version makes phasing short bursts of things pass through me and lots of solidify to gain purchase. Now on a long movement through a solid object this version should imply you begin to sink (as gravity slowly drags you down) but this should happen infrequently enough as to ignore it.

Now you can argue: But phasing doesn't restrict you like that, you can change direction inside solid obstacles and ....
But then I can say The rules don't say phasing grants any movement modes you don't already have so burrowing down and up are not allowed.

 

[yesnomu]

Because falling isn't a movement type, and phasing only allows you to move through obstacles, not treat obstacles as precipitous terrain.

"Move" is not that well-defined. Sliding, for example, isn't a movement type either, but still falls under the forced movement category. Would you let someone be slid through the floor if they had phasing and there was a cavern a few feet underground?

If not, you're treating floors as different from walls, which I can't accept. If so, there's no reason not to allow the phaser to go through the floor on their own.

For an example of how this is relevant, check out the Purple Dragon's Phasing Strike.

 

[keterys]

I think it'd be amusing to let a phaser choose to 'fall' through the floor if they want. Get back out? Eh, nothing says it can do that, without the flight speed. It could try to "climb", but the DC would be nigh impossible unless it were in fairly broken up ground and it could get handholds on something...

In general, if you have rules that don't appear to deal with 3D in D&D, don't try to stress them out by making them 3D. There's no cause. Nobody wins from having creatures duck in and out of the ground without burrow or phasing flight.

 

[DracoSuave]

"Move" is not that well-defined. Sliding, for example, isn't a movement type either, but still falls under the forced movement category. Would you let someone be slid through the floor if they had phasing and there was a cavern a few feet underground?

Sliding is a movement type, covered under forced movement, having specific exceptions to the movement rules. It is still moving.

Moving downwards involves one of two states: Either the ground is solid to you, or it is not. If it is not, you are falling, as nothing supports your mass. Phasing creatures don't fall, so the ground must therefore be solid.

If not, you're treating floors as different from walls, which I can't accept. If so, there's no reason not to allow the phaser to go through the floor on their own.

I also treat walls different from cielings. It doesn't matter if you accept it.

Either the ground has substance for you, or it does not. If it does, you do not fall, if it does, you fall.

You do not 'move a square down and then over and then to the side' and phasing doesn't give you the ability to treat underground as squares of movement.

For an example of how this is relevant, check out the Purple Dragon's Phasing Strike.

Sadly, the tactics for the Purple Dragon don't actually work within the rules. Forced movement requires you have line of effect to every square of movement. Walls block line of effect. So... how does Purple Dragon do its tactics then?


I was waiting for someone to bring that guy up.

 

[yesnomu]

Sliding is a movement type, covered under forced movement, having specific exceptions to the movement rules. It is still moving.

Moving downwards involves one of two states: Either the ground is solid to you, or it is not. If it is not, you are falling, as nothing supports your mass. Phasing creatures don't fall, so the ground must therefore be solid.



I also treat walls different from cielings. It doesn't matter if you accept it.

Either the ground has substance for you, or it does not. If it does, you do not fall, if it does, you fall.

You do not 'move a square down and then over and then to the side' and phasing doesn't give you the ability to treat underground as squares of movement.



Sadly, the tactics for the Purple Dragon don't actually work within the rules. Forced movement requires you have line of effect to every square of movement. Walls block line of effect. So... how does Purple Dragon do its tactics then?


I was waiting for someone to bring that guy up.

I think that's an unnecessarily restrictive way of looking at phasing. After all, it says "you can move through...", not "obstacles no longer block your movement" or something similar. Would you let a wraith back against a wall if it chose to? I would. Choosing what's solid and what's not for you makes more intuitive sense than having floors be impenetrable if you can't burrow/fly, and doesn't contradict anything in the rules.

I personally think the game is more fun when 3D is taken into account and played with. Sure, some things don't work properly, but a good DM and players can account for that and work together to make it work. It makes things like phasing more interactive and interesting to me.

 

[Festivus]

I have used the dive into the floor and pop up adjacent several times in the past. To me, a phasing creature should be permitted to do this, but that is my table. I certainly wouldn't complain to another DM if (s)he ran it one way or the other, it's their interpretation. I too think 3D elements makes the game a lot more fun.

In an exception based rules system, I find it humerous with how many arguments pop up about things in 4E that seem the "break the rules", because they are supposed to. Otherwise dwarves would be using a standard action to activate second wind.

 

[keterys]

In an exception based rules system, I find it humerous with how many arguments pop up about things in 4E that seem the "break the rules", because they are supposed to. Otherwise dwarves would be using a standard action to activate second wind.

Which is actually precisely the point - there's no exception made for phasing. It doesn't allow a creature to avoid opportunity attacks, nor to ignore grabs or restrains.

And it also, unless read in a way that feels mighty peculiar to me, but less to you, says nothing about allowing movement in three dimensions. It doesn't grant the ability to weigh so little you can walk on smoke, though that's thematically cool. Nor let you walk on water, despite any observation of mass or displacement that might make that sensical.

Nor let you walk down into the ground, then walk back up.

If you do feel strongly that it should do any of those things, I suggest submitting it for errata. But I'll note that many creatures that you'd think of doing some of those things _are_ insubstantial and flying. It's really not necessary for avengers, monks, and assassins to be dipping into the ground whenever they decide to phase. Any more than it's necessary for a Mourning Haunt, Dimensional Marauder, or Reaper (all of the creatures who have phasing who didn't have flight up through about level 10, on quick search - most do have flight, being incorporeal undead types)