Observations on Adventure Paths

[I'm A Banana]

So the problem is that either you have reoccurring NPC's that you kind of need to suspend disbelief to keep alive/involved

or

You have one-shot NPC's that aren't as effective?

Hm...the AP I'm writing makes reoccurring NPC's out of the pregens....

This is a function of FFZ, in part (It's okay for a player to play different characters in different sessions, and having a big cast of "selectable characters" is totally within the genre). It also gives me reoccurring NPC's that can be offscreen one minute and with the party (even under control of a player!) the next, and they can be "switched out" for a PC.

It's also true that FFZ expects you to suspend disbelief more often than D&D probably does (even in 4e!). Realism isn't exactly a high priority (more just internal consistency), so having an NPC along for the adventure that doesn't actually show up in the abstract battles except maybe to cast a spell at random if the PC's get lucky works within the game in a way that it might not be acceptable in D&D....

I'm learning some interesting things from this thread...

 

[Agamon]

If you don't mind my asking, what did you do to make it more palatable?

Basically rewrote the whole thing. I even had to redraw the map to make the place smaller. I added a sort of a side trek outside the spire with the beholder that is hinted at in the adventure background, got rid of a lot of the mega damage kyuss spawn, that, if played intelligently, would easily TPK any party within 3 levels of the suggested level of the adventure. It was still tough, a couple of encounters remained intact and 2 PCs died in the adventure, but it was far better than what they were in for, by the book.

 

[RangerWickett]

For War of the Burning Sky, in each of the first eight adventures we introduced one or more NPCs who were (or could potentially be) allies, and whenever possible we tried to work in excuses for them to show up again later, with explanations of what simple changes to make if the PCs had gotten them killed.

It also helps that you're fighting a war, and you go back to your 'home base' city after most of the adventures. The first two adventures are about getting out of the war and reaching the Resistance while the enemy pursues you, and third adventure is about helping defend the rebellion's main city. I figured that after saving the day and being celebrated as heroes by a whole city, you'd have more stake in defending the place from future attack.

In adventure one, you meet a scoundrel who helps you get out of a city under siege, and asks you to find his sister, who has gone off to join the resistance. Since you're going too, it's an easy request. You then run into his sister in the third adventure, and when you save the day, she rides your coat tails into becoming part of the resistance's command structure, so she briefs you on your 'missions' at the start of the next few adventures.

In the ninth adventure you go back to liberate the city you started in, which was conquered, and you meet up with her brother again. How well you've taken care of his sister (for instance, did you let her get tempted into becoming a traitor?) has an impact on how he reacts with you.

Another NPC in adventure 1 connects to events in 9 and 10. An NPC in adventure 2 connects to events in adventure 8. An ally in adventure 3 could be a traitor or a double agent in adventure 7. A military unit you work with in 4 helps out in 8. An ally in 5 has a connection to a location in 7. One NPC ally you can meet in 8 is someone who has been writing the orders for the bad guys who have pursued you in previous adventures.

And when in the final adventure your side sends its armies in the grand battle against the main enemy, we worked one or more scenes for each and every prominent NPC who showed up earlier in the campaign. If by a miracle you make it through 20 levels of the same campaign, we think you'll be quite pleased to see again all the people you've helped and all the changes you've effected in the world.

 

[Wik]

The best NPCs I've run in an AP were a couple of NPCs shipwrecked with the party in Savage Tide - the captain of the ship being one, and Avner, a spoilt, annoying noble, being the other. Avner in particular was really great, as I'd built him up throughout the last adventure, and then had him in the forefront for the next adventure as well.

Unfortunately, after that he faded into the background. The next adventure in the series didn't really have room for him. Oh, and it also separated the captain from the group as she sailed back to civilisation (there's a problem here in the adventure, actually, as it needs her to be in two places at once...) So, the two NPCs apart from Lavinia that the players really liked were shuffled offscreen. We never quite recovered from that; from here the rationale for the adventure failed and shortly thereafter we terminated the AP by mutual agreement.

Yeah, Avner wound up dominating our STAP game - and I knew he would, so I had the foresight to introduce him within the first two or three encounters of the campaign. When he faded away, I kept trying to re-introduce him, but by then, he was away from the party, and had less of a kick. The captain didn't have much clout in our group, but Urol Forol (the gnome) did - and he was one I was able to attach to the party quite often as the game progressed.

However, our STAP game fell apart about six episodes in, when the group had no NPCs pushing them forward, and they still hadn't really fallen on much of a plot or motivation beyond "explore the isle of dread".

***

Btw, Children of the Void is now my favourite Pathfinder Adventure, though I'll never run it as written. It did give me ideas for a spelljammer-esque 4e campaign I'd love to run, and just might do if a TPK ever comes my way.

Now, onto the question at hand:

Motivating your PCs is always tough, but in an AP, it gets harder. I think the recurring villain theme is probably a bad one, unless you follow the "minion" approach, with each villain in the tree getting closer and closer to the BBEG.

Recurring NPCs are a GREAT idea, and I think they should be used whenever possible. Unfortunately, in an AP, they are as you described - either NPCs that follow the PCs until they get killed and then get rail-roaded back to life or fade away from the plot, or they're "Stay at home" PCs that have to be rescued at least twice in the AP (STAP, I'm looking at you!).

I think a better way would be to have NPCs that are unkillable that follow the PCs around, but contribute little. A talking sword, for example, would be a great NPC to hold the AP together. Or Avner gets killed, and comes back as a ghost that haunts the PCs throughout the rest of the AP (heh heh). In both cases, you have an NPC that will always be present, has no bookkeeping to keep track of (they don't make their own attack rolls), and doesn't effect the assumed encounter difficulties of the adventure as written.

STAP for me really worked until the BBEG was killed (for the first time). After that, the PCs felt that they had finished the AP, and everything else was tacked on.

 

[MerricB]

Motivating the PCs is a terribly difficult task in an Adventure Path. Doing it for one or two adventures is one thing... maintaining motivation over lots of adventures? Much harder.

One of the key things that, I think, you need to do is introduce the overall threat early in the piece. Did you watch the second series of Heroes? Did you have any idea what it was about? One of the problems with the season was that there was no clear arc to it; the key threat got introduced way too late.

It's really worth noting that a single AP adventure will take a group 3-4 sessions if they're fairly quick about it, longer if they dally with roleplaying. If you wait until the 16th session to introduce the concept of what the campaign is about... I feel that is way, way too late. 16 sessions? That might be most of a year for some groups.

Players need direction! And subtle clues rarely work for your average group. Hit them over the head with a brick; that will get their attention! Age of Worms was a bit scattered at the beginning, but once it got into gear, the PCs knew what they were up against and what was (basically) going on. Savage Tide? I'm not sure what it was about, and I was running it! (Hyperbole there). The shadow pearls managed to be a really forgettable and unconvincing threat. And so much of the campaign ignored them completely, my players could be forgiven for not seeing the point of the AP.

Mentors to point the PCs where to go next? Yeah, give me them.

Cheers!

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'm running the H series at the moment, and planning to go through the rest of WotC's new adventures - and I agree with what's being said above.

My players are all quite aware that this is a 4e tester campaign. We're playing it because we enjoy gaming together, not to create The Best Campaign Ever. The expectations are low, the players focus on fun without worrying too much about background (although I'm pushing them to give me some stuff to work with, and as I get more out of them I'll try and make some changes to the adventures to reflect what they've said) and round the table I'm trying to keep everything a bit quick and light.

This might mean that the campaign doesn't feature grand plots, incredibly detailed NPC's or gloriously described locations, but it seems to be working so far.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

If I ever run this AP, I'm going to have a tidal wave wipe out that business. It actually works better for the AP in general, I feel, as it would motivate the PCs as well as destroying an anchor on them.

You could always burn it, although your players might not thank you.

(Disclosure: I wrote the article that the latter link points to).

 

[Piratecat]

You could always burn it, although your players might not thank you.

(Disclosure: I wrote the article that the latter link points to).

Funniest thing I've read all week.

I'm reading this thread with interest, as I'm writing an adventure path module right now (I don't think I'm allowed to say what yet.) My approach is to look at the setup and ask "What would work in my own campaign?" If it's too convoluted or coincidental or contrived to make it in my game, it won't go into my adventure.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

Funniest thing I've read all week.

Thank you! (As author for my bit, and as "publisher" for James's bit).

 

[Erik Mona]

This is a very helpful thread. I appreciate all of the feedback on the various adventure paths, including the ones published by other companies. There are so many variables in a campaign that it's sometimes difficult designing something that works for all play styles or all player groups. Yes, certain adventures can end up being better than others (especially with a year or two of hindsight), but we always try to make each AP better than the last one. I'm currently writing the first installment of the Legacy of Fire Adventure Path (the one immediately after Second Darkness), and it's a thrill to get another try at an opening adventure. I really enjoyed "The Whispering Cairn," which started off the Age of Worms, so it's been quite a challenge to top that this time around!

--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC