Octopus, improved grab and constrict

[Aloïsius]

last session, my character was grabbed by a giant octopus. And we stumbled upon the dreaded grapple rules. Each time a tentacle rake hit, the octopus can make a free grapple check, and if he wins the grapple, he do constrict damage. The question was : can the octopus constrict 8 (well, more than once) per round ? I think it can constrict once per iterative attack, depending of its BAB.
Another question : when you are grappled by an octopus, how many grapple check do you need to win to escape a grapple ? One ? One per attached tentacle ?

I read on Wotc site that the grapple/constrict rules are badly written and that many groups avoid them. I would like to be able to use them however, so if someone can enlighten me about this...

 

[Nyeshet]

last session, my character was grabbed by a giant octopus. And we stumbled upon the dreaded grapple rules. Each time a tentacle rake hit, the octopus can make a free grapple check, and if he wins the grapple, he do constrict damage. The question was : can the octopus constrict 8 (well, more than once) per round ? I think it can constrict once per iterative attack, depending of its BAB.

If a troll succeeds with two attacks there is a free rend associated with it. If - due to some odd template - the troll has four arms, and it attacks with all four arms, it gets two free rends. The rend is automatic bonus damage that is considered part of the two claw strike damages.

If a rogue is making a sneak attack with two weapons, and its target is flat-footed, flanked, or otherwise susceptible to sneak attack damage, both weapons cause SA damage. The bonus damage is considered part of the weapon's normal attack.

In the same manner as the prior two examples the constrict damage is considered automatic bonus damage should the grapple check succeed. And as the grapple is automatic should the tentacle succeed in striking the target, the constrict could be considered bonus tentacle damage. If the following round all eight tentacles are still constricting, then roll a combined constrict damage. That is to say, if the constrict is 1d6, then you would roll 8d6 the next round if all eight tentacles are still constricting the single target.

The octopus / squid is dangerous verse small groups and leathal verse one opponent if it manages to successfully strike and grapple with all eight tentacles. But why would it focus all of its tentacles on a single target? Like the hydra, each tentacles can strike a different target - so long as the target is within reach. If a PC rushed in ahead of the rest of the party and was hit with all eight before the party could arrive as backup, then the PC deserves what it received.

Another question : when you are grappled by an octopus, how many grapple check do you need to win to escape a grapple ? One ? One per attached tentacle ?

The latter option. You must free yourself from each tentacle, so each one requires a separate grapple check. Note, however, that the creature only has eight tentacles, and it can only attack with tentacles or bite. An average eight member party, therefore, is likely to see no more than 1-3 tentacles per person. So it is unlikely in the extreme that all eight would attack one person. If all eight did, then the creature would only have the bite attack to deal with the other 3+ individuals in the party - which would make it easier for the party to close in and attack it that round - which would likely cause it to release some of its grappling tentacles voluntarily just to attack those hurting it.

 

[Aloïsius]

Thank ! But what about the constrict ? Do each tentacle deal constrict damage ?

 

[Nyeshet]

My first post was originally messed up a bit due to a left out end-quote. I think it answers the Constrict question. The short answer is Yes, each tentacle does constrict - so long as it is still grappling. As I recall the damage is done at the end of the round if the grapple is maintained more than one round. So suppose a PC got grappled by five tentacles in round one. He receives constrict damage from each of them as each successful grapple succeeds.

Other events occur, then moves on to round two. Now, if throughou all of round two the tentacles do not release him, then the Octopus gains a constrict at the end of the round as bonus damage from maintaining the grapple (roll 5d6). If at any point a tentacle releases the PC then it must make another tentacle rake with that tentacle to deal constrict damage. Suppose two tentacles release the PC to battle other PCs during the round. At the end of round two the grappled PC is dealt 3d6 constrict damage (5 - 2 tentacles, 3* 1d6 constrict, presuming 1d6 is typical constrict damage; don't have the book in front of me at the moment).

Round three. Only three tentacles are constricting the PC. Suppose the octopus releases one more tentacle, but then later on the PC manages to succeed a grapple check - forcing another tentacle to release. Worried about its grip, it makes two tentacle rakes, each succeeding its grapple check. Each rake would have its constrict damage applied then, at the time the successful grapple was rolled following the attacks. Then, at the end of round three only one constrict damage is rolled (1d6 w/ the prior example), as only one tentacle from the prior round was attached to the PC throughout the round. Note that the PC still has three tentacles around them, but two of them are new and have already applied their constrict damage.

That is basically how constrict and grappling work. Each round the octopus has to maintain grapple throughout to deal constrict damage at the end of the round. The only points I'm not sure on are: does the PC gain a grapple check against each tentacle (I think so, but I'm not sure), and when does the opposed grapple check occur - character's round or the octopus' round? I think it is the latter. During the octopus' round it makes its attacks or confirms its grapples with each tentacle. The PC opposes the grapple then. During the PC's turn he can choose to attack a tentacle or the octopus, or attempt some other action (perhaps even another grapple attempt against one of the tentacles, to try to break free?). At the end of the turn, any tentacles that have held on throughout deal constricting damage.

That sounds about right.

 

[Aloïsius]

That sounds about right.

If it is, then my character should have been dead. And the rest of the group, too. Constrict damage is 2d8+6. Regular damage is 1d+5. Bite damage is 1d8+2. This beast (CR8) can do more than 100 HP damage per round with constric alone. It's supposed to be eaten by whale cachalot, however. We ruled that it could do only two consctrict attacks per round, because its base attack is +6. If you are right (and we are wrong) this critter (and the Squid) is probably the N°1 damage dealing form a druid can adopt.

 

[Nyeshet]

If it is, then my character should have been dead. And the rest of the group, too. Constrict damage is 2d8+6. Regular damage is 1d+5. Bite damage is 1d8+2. This beast (CR8) can do more than 100 HP damage per round with constric alone. It's supposed to be eaten by whale cachalot, however. We ruled that it could do only two consctrict attacks per round, because its base attack is +6. If you are right (and we are wrong) this critter (and the Squid) is probably the N°1 damage dealing form a druid can adopt.

In a way true, but that is just about all the creature has going for it. It only has 47 hp (average), it only moves 30 ft (or, once per minute, 200 ft for one round), its AC is only 18 (flatfoot 16, touch 11), which, by level 8, nearly everyone should be hitting all the time - even the poor BAB classes, it has no resistances or immunities, and its Int and Cha are so low that any poison or spell that does damage to either will paralyze the creature. Its will save is only +3, so any attack that affects such would have no real resistance.

The only reason it even qualifies for its CR 8 is due to its damage output due to its multiple tentacles. Note that it can only make one tentacle attack or one bite attack if has moved that round, as it lacks Spring Attack or any monster equivalent. Ranged attacks might be difficult underwater, but with only 47 hp and AC 18 such could quickly put an end to it. Rays (against AC 11 touch) would have little difficulty hitting it.

Your team was probably 8th level, so ignoring fighters for a moment, let's see what the casters can do:

Summon Monster 4
-- Fiendish large Shark: good swim speed, strong bite, some (unnecessary) resistance, dark vision

-- Ooze Mephit: breath weapon deals 1d4 acid that imposes -4 to AC & -2 to attack rolls for 3 rnds if damage occurs. The oct will likely make the save for half damage (1 or 2 pts), but any damage at all and the penalty applies.

-- Huge Fiendish Viper: bite deals 1d6+4+poison (1d6 Con, DC 14). It also has Impr Init, Run, a swim speed (20 ft), and a grapple equal to the octopus - so a better chance of escaping the grapple and thus the bonus damage.

Charm Monster: even with the +5 due to being attacked, the creature has a chance of failing its save

Crushing Despair: No +5 bonus to help it this time: "Each affected creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls."

Ice Storm: 3d6 bludgeoning, 2d6 cold damage, for a total average of 10.5 + 7.0 damage - a third of the creature's life.

Bestow Curse: No +5 bonus to help it here either.
-- -6 to an ability score could reduce its chance for successful grapple greatly (Str); placing this in Con will all but kill the creature, esp it followed by Phantasmal Killer
-- -4 to attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks could really make the fight easier - this is the one I would consider using
-- 50% chance each turn of taking no action would quickly kill it.

The problem is that it is a "creature touched' spell, but that is what "Spectral Hand" is for.

Phantasmal Killer: The will save to disbelieve is unlikely to succeed. The Fortitude save might - unless a means of lowering it is used. A save or die effect that grants 10.5 damage (average, a quarter of the creature's life) on a successful save.

Rainbow Pattern: it affects up to 24 HD of creatures. The oct is only 8 HD. Once facinated it will follow the lights like a puppy. Of only limited usefulness, but could keep the creature busy while the rest of the party heals up and prepares for another attack

Ray of Exhaustion: On a successful save the creature takes -2 to Str and Dex and cannot take any strenuous action without becoming exhausted. On a failed save (more likely if the Con is first lowered by Bestow Curse, Viper bite, etc) the octopus takes -6 to Dex and Str and moves at half speed. I seem to recall something about it being more limited in how many attacks, etc it can make, but that may be 3.0e I'm thinking about.

Vampiric Touch (likely via a Spectral Hand) deals 4d6 damage (average 14 pts) and heals the caster the damage dealt.

Fireball (you knew it had to be in here somewhere, right?): deals 8d6 damage (ave: 28 dmg - half the oct's life), meaning it has the potential to completely kill the creature in one hit. Note that there is a save for half, but a quarter the creatu're life is still impressive.

Lightning Bolt - as fireball it can deal impressive damage - potentially killing the creature outright, albeit with a save for half

Deep Slumber: why not put the creature to sleep for a few rounds? It affects up to 10HD of creatures, and the oct is only 8 HD. Note that a sleeping creature is helpless - meaning a coup de gras attack is perhaps possible. Of course, if you fail to deal enough damage it does wake up. It lasts up to 1 minute per level - more than enough time to get by, heal up, prepare a 'surpise' attack (due to its helpless nature), etc

Blindness / Deafness: The fort save is a problem until you lower the Con a bit, but otherwise a blind octopus is potentially less troublesome as it does not have Blind fight and so all PCs have 50% concealment against it.

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And these are just the casters (Sor / Wiz mostly) ! The Fighters are likely dealing some notable damage themselves. A mightly longbow (+3) is dealing 1d8+3 +more based upon weapon enhancement (perhaps +2), feats (point blank shot +1, weapon specialization +2), and class specials (ranger +2 or +4 if animals are a favored enemy), etc. Typical BAB for a fighter is +8+str, so presuming a Str of 20 (16, +2 from leveling, +2 str item) then you are typically doing d20 + 13 vs AC 18 - a 75% chance of success! Even with the second attack at -5 you still have a 50% chance of success against the creature's AC.

Note that the creature is not immune to Sneak Attack (+4d6 at this level). If the rogue flanks every attack is a sneak attack - and the AC is low enough that even the rogue can perhaps get by it 50-60% of the time. The only problem is if you move in close. Note that if the party surprises the octopus, the rogue can throw a dagger that round from 30 ft away to deal 1d4 + 4d6 sneak attack (ave: 16.5 dmg, a third of the creature's life).

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So the encounter is not that difficult, at least not if common spells are prepared and a ranged specialist is among the party - especially if you have surprise and a rogue with a throwing dagger.

 

[Gansk]

Once the octopus succeeds in grappling an opponent, it does constriction damage, but it is done attacking for the round. The two combatants are now in grapple mode, and their options become limited.

Since the octopus has improved grab, it can choose to try to grapple the opponent with -20 penalty (net effect is -5 grapple for a giant octopus). If it still succeeds with this penalty, it does constriction damage as above, but it is still finished attacking the opponent it is now grappling. By taking the penalty, the octopus is still allowed to attack other opponents in its threat range with the rest of its tentacles. If it keeps taking the -20 penalty, it can keep attacking and grabbing and inflicting constrict damage on each new opponent. If it doesn't take the -20 penalty, the opponents who are not grappled can move in and sneak attack the octopus or cure anybody who is taking damage, and the octopus can do nothing about it.

If the grappled opponents want to escape, they need to win a grapple check vs. d20+15 or d20-5, depending on the choice the octopus made about attacking opponents outside the grapple.

On the round after it has grabbed an opponent (or multiple opponents), the octopus has two main choices to inflict damage. Before it makes its choice about the grappled opponents, it still has to choose about the opponents outside the grapple. If it still wants to attack them with free tentacles, it still needs to take -20 penalty. Otherwise they can do anything they want as I described above.

Once the octopus has decided on the penalty, it can choose to damage one of the opponents in the grapple by attacking vs. the opponent's AC or by using its grapple check.
The better choice is the grapple check option, because it can do it twice based on its BAB, and each time it succeeds, it does constriction damage. So the most damage it can dish out against an opponent it has already grabbed is 2d8+10 plus 4d8+12, but it has to win iterative grapple checks to do so.

The stupid option for an octopus to take against a grabbed opponent is to attack normally against the opponent's AC. The octopus can either bite or use a free tentacle to slam, but the attack is at -4 and the most damage it can do is 1d8+2 with the bite. Then the octopus is done with that opponent for the round. If it chose to not take the -20 penalty to keep the opponent from escaping, then it is done for the entire round period. No more attacks.

 

[Aloïsius]

In a way true, but that is just about all the creature has going for it. It only has 47 hp (average), it only moves 30 ft (or, once per minute, 200 ft for one round), its AC is only 18 (flatfoot 16, touch 11), which, by level 8, nearly everyone should be hitting all the time - even the poor BAB classes, it has no resistances or immunities, and its Int and Cha are so low that any poison or spell that does damage to either will paralyze the creature. Its will save is only +3, so any attack that affects such would have no real resistance.

The only reason it even qualifies for its CR 8 is due to its damage output due to its multiple tentacles. Note that it can only make one tentacle attack or one bite attack if has moved that round, as it lacks Spring Attack or any monster equivalent. Ranged attacks might be difficult underwater, but with only 47 hp and AC 18 such could quickly put an end to it. Rays (against AC 11 touch) would have little difficulty hitting it.

Your team was probably 8th level, so ignoring fighters for a moment, let's see what the casters can do:

No, we were level 6-7, with only one caster (druid) who has already used all his high level spells so that the fighters could operate underwater. The octopus was hidden in a pool of black water in a cave, nearly invisible, and had cover and concilment. To attack him, you had to jump in the pool (where my character had been grabed) and try to hit him from above without seeing exactly where it was. As we were puzzled by the rules, we used something looking like what Gansk explained, except that there was no -20 penalty... One PC dead, and another at -9.


@Gansk : thank you. This is not the simplest rule, I guess, but I think that you are right.