OD&D example of play

[Bullgrit]

A: We did X and it sucked.
B: We did X and had fun..
A: Then you're doing it wrong, because there's no way that could be fun.

And don't forget:

B: Then you're doing it wrong, because there's no way that could suck.

Bullgrit

 

[Bullgrit]

I think you're probably taking that example of "attitude" too literally.

I took it as it was presented. Maybe that passage was poorly written? No, no, it was written by Gygax. Definitely must be reader error.

Bullgrit

 

[Chainsaw]

And don't forget:

B: Then you're doing it wrong, because there's no way that could suck.

Bullgrit

Well, if someone's NOT having fun, *maybe* they are doing it wrong - so some discussion isn't unwarranted. I hate seeing people pounce when someone says they ARE having fun. If someone writes about how much fun they having riding a bike with no seat, then whatever, smile, shrug and move on.. who cares if I think that would be painful?

 

[Dungeoneer]

As a relative newcomer to the hobby I find it fascinating how differently D&D was played in early days. I love learning about this stuff (although I could do without the attitude that everything after 1981 is terrible). Could someone explain to me the persistent dungeon thing? That's new to me. What would be the advantages of returning to the same dungeon twice, or taking a later group through a dungeon already explored and presumably ransacked by an earlier group?

 

[Doug McCrae]

Could someone explain to me the persistent dungeon thing? That's new to me. What would be the advantages of returning to the same dungeon twice, or taking a later group through a dungeon already explored and presumably ransacked by an earlier group?

The old school dungeon is massive. We're talking hundreds of rooms at least, maybe thousands. By some interpretations, it's infinite, in the sense that it can never be fully explored, never ransacked. There are always more levels. It could be of infinite lateral extent too. Even parts cleared can be later reoccupied by other monsters.

Advantages I can think of:
1) Reuse of material.
2) Players feel like part of a bigger world, a busy world, where lots is going on.
3) Fun to compare how various groups did in the same dungeon.

You're right about it being potentially boring to get thru a large cleared section, with nothing but wandering monster checks. In his Dungeon Architect series in White Dwarf, Roger Musson suggests adding a teleport system to alleviate this problem.

 

[Reynard]

As a relative newcomer to the hobby I find it fascinating how differently D&D was played in early days. I love learning about this stuff (although I could do without the attitude that everything after 1981 is terrible). Could someone explain to me the persistent dungeon thing? That's new to me. What would be the advantages of returning to the same dungeon twice, or taking a later group through a dungeon already explored and presumably ransacked by an earlier group?

For many, the dungeon *was* the campaign setting -- it's where the action happened. Towns and wilderness areas were incidental, providing either respite from the dungeon or trouble (by random roll).

Moreover, dungeons were/are not meant to be static things, where once the orcs are killed in room 1.12a there will never again be anything in room 1.12a. The dungeon is a microcosm, with an ecology and sociology all its own. It's supposed to be big enough than no particular group of adventurers is likely to ransack the whole thing, and dangerous enough that those that try are likely to end up refilling treasure hordes (if you catch my drift).

The biggest difference (IMO) is that the dungeon was there for its own sake and the characters explore it because it is there. A dungeon may have but doesn't require a BBEG at the bottom. It doesn't require a bottom at all and it may have a half dozen BBEGs inside, all vying with one another as well as vexing the PCs. Exploration and treasure hunting were the name of the game, not saving the world or otherwise engaging a "plot", so the dungeon could exist for generations of characters.

 

[Reynard]

You're right about it being potentially boring to get thru a large cleared section, with nothing but wandering monster checks. In his Dungeon Architect series in White Dwarf, Roger Musson suggests adding a teleport system to alleviate this problem.

Teleport systems can be lots of fun, especially when not entirely reliable!

 

[Bullgrit]

The old school dungeon is massive.

And in the case for many groups, it was theoretical. Or very short lived.

I love the concept of the persistent mega-dungeon, but it was a rare thing in the reality. There were very, very few ever officially published -- and some of those were published during D&D3, (perhaps ironically).

Bullgrit

 

[Doug McCrae]

I love the concept of the persistent mega-dungeon, but it was a rare thing in the reality.

I think you're right. Reading Knights & Knaves Alehouse one sees a lot of talk about 'working on my mega-dungeon' but not so much 'running my mega-dungeon'.

One solution may be to do what Gary did and start fairly small, adding more levels etc as needed. In OD&D Gary says start with six maps, which I assume means six levels, but I think you could easily get away with half that.

Mind you, most of the contents are supposed to be randomly generated, which makes things easier. You could randomly generate the whole thing but imo the quality level would suffer too much. People might even call it videogame-y!

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Could someone explain to me the persistent dungeon thing? That's new to me. What would be the advantages of returning to the same dungeon twice, or taking a later group through a dungeon already explored and presumably ransacked by an earlier group?

Most of my thoughts on that can be found in The Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld and Creating a Mythic Underworld Dungeon.

If the dungeon is set up for that kind of game, it's not a question of advantage or disadvantage. The dungeon is so large that returning to explore the unknown areas is something of a given. It's typically not a place that is "beaten" or "finished." (While "missions" into the dungeon will naturally arise, the broad goal tends to be exploration of the unknown in search of fortune and glory.) Similarly, it isn't static, but changes over time (mostly referring to inhabitants, but even architectural features could change).

Repetition is typically not a problem, because the design of the place includes multiple paths for explorers to take, including lots of ways to move up and down through the levels. Some of those ways can go very deep very quickly (that's a common function of "elevator rooms" and teleports).