OD&D = social mobility, 4e does not

I'm suprised that most posters here do not understand the OP. I'm even more suprised that many of them rudely make fun of what they don't understand. That's not a behavior I expected to see at EN World.

Having said that, back to the topic.

There are a few themes described in the OP. One of them is a general trend of centering on the past. Old great empires, artifacts found in ancient crypts and dungeons, rituals created by mages ages before. The golden age is long past and we now only rediscover what remains of its glory.
This trend truely exist. Even more so - it is nearly necessary for a game that assumes the PCs to be among the most powerful beings of their time, but still finding challanges and items appropriate for their abilities. Especially if the ancient underground mazes full of dangerous creatures are so important as to give the name to the game system.

The other theme is the social mobility; the possibility or really going "from zero to hero". The OP speaks of both the heroes that face mortal dangers and the "geeky wizard" hero that gains power (and probably shares it with other people) through his own research, experimentation and ingenuity, not through ancient tomes.

Then, the OP states that OD&D follows the social mobility theme while 4e delves in the past. I understand the point, but I do not agree with it.

All editions of D&D focused on the past. In each of them PC rather found magic items and spells than created them. In each they fought minions of evil gods banished ages ago. In each they discovered what was left of ancient empires. In each much more rules were given for exploring dungeons than for politics, wars, magical and technological research and other ways of changing the world in a significant way, all taken together. More wealth was found in hidden crypts than produced by the whole cities. Most plotlines center on "saving" something, keeping status quo, instead of real advancement (other than the level advancement, of course). The only change is that 4e is more focused on the main themes of play, while the older editions had some rules for the side matters, most of them neither time-saving nor more useful than average DM's common sence.

In the same vein, no edition of D&D really allowed social mobility. Each one assumed the PCs to be exceptional, with most of the population completely unable to equal them. Once again, 4e is more obvious here, with PCs being powerful from the first level while in older editions low-level adventuring was deadly dangerous. No matter how the PCs careers began, most of people in the world were assumed to never gain levels. In editions in which majority of NPCs had levels at all it were levels in special classes designed to be much weaker than "the heroes". In each edition it was very uncommon to start a campaign with the PCs being commoners. None of them takes you from zero to hero - 4e only gives you a safety net at the beginning.
 

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OD&D = social mobility, 4e does not
Does that mean 4e is more medieval than OD&D?

There's really not much difference between editions here. There has always been an expectation of team play, 4e just gives it more mechanical support. And I'm not sure any one role in 4e is as vital as the cleric was in previous editions.

The concept of dungeons filled with mighty magic items presupposes a 'Golden Age', an Atlantis, a Numenor. Again, this is true in every edition. The last Greyhawk campaign I played in put a lot of emphasis on Suel ruins and uncovering the mysteries of the ancients. 2e probably put the least emphasis on dungeons of all the editions.

1e and BECMI have some mechanical support for social mobility - building strongholds. The idea is that once a PC has killed all the monsters in an area, he is granted that land by the king.
 


2. Older editions encourage the PCs to develop and invent new powers (e.g. through spell research), 4e encourages the PCs to discover ancient secrets instead. The implication here is that in older editions, the future is always better than the past, while in 4e, the future can never be as good as the past.

While I don't necessarily agree with all of the above, I do feel that the element of spell research (or power research in general - no need to leave out the martial power source) is something that the 4e rules do not really address. Individual DMs can always allow it if they want to, of course, just as individual DMs could also develop adventures and campaigns where the PCs can rise to lead countries, empires and world- (or plane-) spanning organizations.

I agree that 4E hasn't covered this subject. But I don't think past editions did a very good job at guiding someone in this matter. It always seemed more like lip service towards introducing material from new books than actually expecting you to create your own*. You can accomplish that aspect in 4E when someone takes a power from a new book. Either they discovered an ancient power or developed a new one on their own.


*That said, I think 1E encouraged this best and was the last time I saw my players research and develop their own spells. Even then it only occurred a handful of times, IME.
 

I'm suprised that most posters here do not understand the OP. I'm even more suprised that many of them rudely make fun of what they don't understand. That's not a behavior I expected to see at EN World.

Then report me, we have mods for a reason.

I grasp every sentence the OP makes and their connections. It is clear if you really understand it, it is a hot wet mess of gibberish.

Themes mean nothing to comprehension. You comment on elements of the premise, and cut down his premise, but the main reaction was to his conclusions.

Acid. Acid. Acid Acid.
 

I agree that 4E hasn't covered this subject. But I don't think past editions did a very good job at guiding someone in this matter. It always seemed more like lip service towards introducing material from new books than actually expecting you to create your own. You can accomplish that aspect in 4E when someone takes a power from a new book. Either they discovered an ancient power or developed a new one on their own.
For that matter, you don't even need a new book. You can just flavor it as the PCs being the first to develop their powers and abilities. The player isn't being particularly creative, but the character is the first (perhaps only) fighter/cleric/wizard/whatever in the world, and cleave/lance of faith/magic missile/whatever is an exploit/prayer/spell/whatever that he researched himself. This works particularly well for dawn of time or similar settings.
 



Actually, I think we all owe Tigh a big debt of gratitude; old-schooler or f4nboy, dungeon-crawler or sandboxer, smart-ass or moderator, we all agree on one thing...

We don't agree/get with the OP's premise.
 

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