Odin, Thor, and Loki are Babylonian deities!!

[The_Universe]

If you're looking for an explanation for civilization springing up so suddenly in so many different places, with little archaeological evidence of it being built up as slowly as one would think, and each of those having a story of a flood that almost destroyed civilization in it's early days, I recommend a book called "Noah's Flood", I forget the authors but I'm sure Amazon dot com will know. It's got an interesting theory, not proven by a long shot, but so far as I know it's not disproven; and it seems credible. I would synopsize the idea here, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be breaking a rule or two.

Please post it - as long as the discussion (I think) is just about the possibilities, not about the right/wrong aspect and doesn't degenerate into personal attacks, we should be A-OK. I think it's relevent to the discussion...

 

[The_Universe]

On a similar note, Fingerprints of the Gods by Graham Hancock makes much of recurring mythic (and architectural) themes in order to STRONGLY HINT that humans have extraterrestrial origins (and thus share a single common history, rather than multiple simultaneous civilizing influences).

I tend to think it's crap, but it might resonate seriously with some of you - and, as with the original post, it makes for interesting background for a game, regardless of truth or falsehood.

 

[Shemeska]

I tend to think it's crap,

So does pretty much the entire historical and archaeological establishment if it makes you feel any better

And so do I

 

[Algolei]

If you're looking for an explanation for civilization springing up so suddenly in so many different places, with little archaeological evidence of it being built up as slowly as one would think, and each of those having a story of a flood that almost destroyed civilization in it's early days, I recommend a book called "Noah's Flood", I forget the authors but I'm sure Amazon dot com will know. It's got an interesting theory, not proven by a long shot, but so far as I know it's not disproven; and it seems credible. I would synopsize the idea here, but I'm not sure it wouldn't be breaking a rule or two.

Is that the argument that all major civilizations, which seem to have sprung up out of no where, settled near high mountains? Being near high mountains is evidence that the seeds of each civilization were remnants of a Great Flood: Just like Noah's ark, each of them came to rest atop a mountain, then descended to the low lands to create a settlement.

 

[Torm]

I tend to think it's crap, but it might resonate seriously with some of you -

If you mean it might resonate with the stuff I'm saying, bear in mind that I don't believe ANYTHING that contradicts scientific Theories (note the cap T). My beliefs exist in the gaps of that knowledge only - for purposes of fun, moral reinforcement, and spiritual wonkiness. If good science were to directly prove wrong or even shed serious doubt on any of what I believe (which would be pretty impressive, since it is about as far removed from anything science can currently touch as you can get), I would expect to revise my understanding of my beliefs, not science. Currently, though, science seems to find more and more that AGREES with my beliefs all the time - but that may change, I suppose.

The only reason I suggested separate acts of Creation by separate gods for separate peoples of the world isn't because I believe it, but because plenty of people (possibly here) that I wouldn't wish to disrespect DO. I believe evolution. I just happen to believe that it (and many other aspects of the world) is happening on a program, and that perhaps that program was influenced by many entities.

And some of the stuff in those books, if they are the ones I am thinking, flies in the face of good science. Of course, as you pointed out, they still might make interesting reading for gaming materials.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the "lost tribes" were lost because they died out from war and other causes and/or were taken into the other tribes and lost their separate identities. If you want a better Biblical source that definitively says there were people in other lands ASIDE from the decendents of Adam, look to where Cain and Seth found their wives.

 

[The_Universe]

If you mean it might resonate with the stuff I'm saying, bear in mind that I don't believe ANYTHING that contradicts scientific Theories (note the cap T).

My statement was not directed to any particular poster - I was just trying to follow the forum rules, and let everyone know that if it was something that you hung your theological hat on, that was cool with me.

My beliefs exist in the gaps of that knowledge only - for purposes of fun, moral reinforcement, and spiritual wonkiness. If good science were to directly prove wrong or even shed serious doubt on any of what I believe (which would be pretty impressive, since it is about as far removed from anything science can currently touch as you can get), I would expect to revise my understanding of my beliefs, not science. Currently, though, science seems to find more and more that AGREES with my beliefs all the time - but that may change, I suppose.

I don't think that you and I probably have a single major religious belief in common (from what little I can gather), but I can totally agree with you on this statement.

The only reason I suggested separate acts of Creation by separate gods for separate peoples of the world isn't because I believe it, but because plenty of people (possibly here) that I wouldn't wish to disrespect DO. I believe evolution. I just happen to believe that it (and many other aspects of the world) is happening on a program, and that perhaps that program was influenced by many entities.

Can't prove that it is/was, and you can't prove that it isn't/wasn't.

And some of the stuff in those books, if they are the ones I am thinking, flies in the face of good science. Of course, as you pointed out, they still might make interesting reading for gaming materials.

Oh yeah - some of it would be instantly dismissed by anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of the subjects the author touches on.

A

lso, unless I'm mistaken, the "lost tribes" were lost because they died out from war and other causes and/or were taken into the other tribes and lost their separate identities. If you want a better Biblical source that definitively says there were people in other lands ASIDE from the decendents of Adam, look to where Cain and Seth found their wives.

I don't think the bible definitively states where and how they came to find wives. I admit, however, that you have to do some interesting theological tapdancing to reconcile that part of the story with the earlier portions.

Interestingly, the bible doesn't seem to conclusively state that all of humanity descended from Adam until after the Flood - at which point, all humanity (according to the Bible, believe or not as you please) would have descended from Noah, since only he and his sons (and their families) survived. Incidentally, that also means that they descended from Adam (since Noah was a descendent of his) but the bottleneck is really in a different place than most people actually think.

 

[Torm]

Can't prove that it is/was, and you can't prove that it isn't/wasn't.

Exactly - makes a nice safe place to stick a belief.

I don't think that you and I probably have a single major religious belief in common (from what little I can gather)

If you believe (as many religious people do) in the divinity of Christ, we do - but our thought paths to get us to that conclusion are probably vastly different. And since the devil is in the details, and I'd like not to be devil's advocate, I'll leave it at that.

I don't think the bible definitively states where and how they came to find wives. I admit, however, that you have to do some interesting theological tapdancing to reconcile that part of the story with the earlier portions.

Not really, if you read it in the original languages involved - translation is a strange thing, sometimes. I'd recommend looking specifically at the different words that are translated into English as "G-d". If you'd like more detail about what I mean by that, email me: torm1975@bellsouth.net.

 

[Desdichado]

Also, unless I'm mistaken, the "lost tribes" were lost because they died out from war and other causes and/or were taken into the other tribes and lost their separate identities.

No, the lost tribes were literally lost. They were carried off and relocated by several different entities including the Assyrians, the Babylonians and the Persians at various points, and some of the tribes literally got lost in the shuffle, whereas during the reign of (IIRC Darius) the Jews, who were not lost, were allowed to resettle Canaan/Palestine/Israel. Some apocryphal sources of the Bible indicate that they fled to "the land northward" but very little detail is given. And that's exactly why theories like the one espoused by this Ensign group, whomever they are, have had various degrees of support for a long time. The lost tribes went north. The Europeans are to the north. The Europeans wanted to stake a claim to being affiliated with the Chosen People. There were various traditions of Israelitic settlements in Britain and other places. Etc. etc. Torm, you don't mind if I e-mail you too, right? I'm curious about continuing this discussion; it's been an object of some interest of mine for many years. I don't claim to be an expert on Biblical archeology by any stretch of the word, but I'm always interested in a discussion.

 

[Torm]

Torm, you don't mind if I e-mail you too, right? I'm curious about continuing this discussion; it's been an object of some interest of mine for many years. I don't claim to be an expert on Biblical archeology by any stretch of the word, but I'm always interested in a discussion.

Not at all - and that goes for anyone else, too. Come one come all. If you want polite discussion, excellent. If you want to be abusive, that can be fun, too - I like having people who give me an excuse to be mean in new and inventive ways.

[shameless plug]Actually, if anyone wants to have conversations that border on breaking the rules for religion or politics here on a forum, you can always go over to www.minioninc.com, get an acc't, and start a thread. Please use your ENWorld screenname for clarity, though. I'm "Baron_von_Brueger" there - don't ask. I'll pick up another acc't labelled Torm if any of these conversations pop up. It is sparsely populated, presently. But be warned - Eric's grandmother would have a coronary. There are almost NO rules there. And don't mind "Meca-Jesus" - he's like that with everyone.[/shameless plug]

Or, if you just want to email, cool. Either way.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, I gambled and went ahead and sent you an email before I saw your response.