Odin, Thor, and Loki are Babylonian deities!!

[Desdichado]

Only problem is that there's no evidence of a mass extinction during the (geologically) modern human era.

Nonsense. There most certainly is such evidence. It's *usually* attributed to the end of the last glacial epoch and global climate changes, though. And the timing isn't precise. Some people believe that fauna like mammoths and such were still alive in the New World as recently as a few thousand years -- or even less -- ago.

Now, nobody I know of seriously is positing that this extinction event had anything to do with the Flood... but I can't think of any reason why someone couldn't posit that.

 

[The_Universe]

Regarding Floods...

While there may not be any geological/paleontological evidence of a massive human extinction, there most certainly *is* geological evidence aplenty for massive shifts in planetary water levels throughout the history of the human race. All those ruins you read about that people find hiding at the bottom of the sea(s) weren't built by ancient scuba divers.

Further, just because you don't have a recorded instance of a major human kill-off doesn't mean that it could not have happened. You're operating under the idea that the human race was widespread - but when the population of humanity was relatively new (and hadn't dispersed to the four winds) a flood could have destroyed a significant amount of the total human population and still not have made a dent in the fossil record.

Now, does that mean that it happened? No.

Does it mean it *could* have? Absolutely.

 

[The_Universe]

As far as I'm concerned, alot of pre-Abrahamic material is summed up with one word: metaphor. That's my opinion anyway, you can feel free to disagree.

As a general rule, I think that most of the stuff you're talking about here actually happened, at least from the perspective of the people recording it. I tend to think that there was a flood, etc.

My rationalization is that I tend to imagine that the timelines are *way* off. Even with the Bible (apparently) drastically inflating ages as we understand them to work today, it still works out to be - what? - a 7-8,000 year old world?

I tend to think that the order is correct, and that most of the events are basically true...but if you tell me that X event really happened more years before Z even than the bible says, I'd not be disturbed in the slightest.

As always, YMMV!

 

[Torm]

As far as I'm concerned, alot of pre-Abrahamic material is summed up with one word: metaphor. That's my opinion anyway, you can feel free to disagree.

Asimov (I know I keep bringing this up, but its a GOOD book. About the Good Book. ) thought that generally, before Abraham, anytime you saw people referred to - Ham, Shem, and Japheth, for example - that those were iconic representatives of a particular tribe, rather than actual people, and that the begats in those parts reflected tribes that separated and came out of other tribes.

If that were true, there would be a LOT of metaphor involved.

 

[tarchon]

Asimov (I know I keep bringing this up, but its a GOOD book. About the Good Book. ) thought that generally, before Abraham, anytime you saw people referred to - Ham, Shem, and Japheth, for example - that those were iconic representatives of a particular tribe, rather than actual people, and that the begats in those parts reflected tribes that separated and came out of other tribes.

If that were true, there would be a LOT of metaphor involved.

That's more or less the usual modern interpretation, not unique or original to Asimov. Personified tribal eponym stories are so common in ancient literature (and "oral traditions") that it could almost be considered a genre. The degree to which ancient contemporaries viewed them as factual is unclear, though it probably was a matter of personal opinion much as it is today. Some view it as having been more of an abstract approach to organizing knowledge of contemporary geography and ethnology. It is personally difficult for me to see an intent to record literal history in the Yahwist's continual and arguably often satirical wordplay though.

 

[Torm]

It is personally difficult for me to see an intent to record literal history in the Yahwist's

Careful, there. I'd almost be surprised this thread hasn't shut down yet, if it weren't for the maturity level of the conversation, but you want to be careful with what you just did - many Jews regard pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton outside of specific religious purposes to be blaspheme. You came real real close.

 

[Henry]

And on that note...

As much as I've been appreciative of the civil and mature nature of the conversation here, it's really gone way outside the bounds of the usual limits of religious discussion, here, and I feel it's better to shut it down than let it continue here. If the participants want to continue it, it sounds like several other avenues and places have been mentioned where it would be more on-topic to discuss.

Sorry to all, and thanks again for being as courteous as all have been.