Of Huge Salamanders and Grappling

[andargor]

In our last game, we encountered an Augmented Noble Salamander (Huge Noble Salamander with 10 Fighter levels)

The Salamander hit an adjacent greater invisible character with its tail (successfully passed miss chance), and started a grapple using its Improved Grab ability. It dealt Constrict damage at that time. In the next round, the DM ruled that the Salamander could uncoil its tail to allow an attack from its +3 Longspear on the grappled character, and that the character was pinned. The character continued to get Constrict damage as well. The character was immune to Fire, so that didn't apply. For the next rounds, the same scenario was repeated.

It was pointed out to the DM that:

• The Salamander was attacking with a +3 Longspear, which cannot be used in adjacent square or the same square. The DM replied that the Salamander uncoiled its tail sufficiently to allow an attack from the +3 Longspear, and that it was a shorter version allowing such an attack.
• A grappling creature cannot attack its victim with a weapon that is not Light. Same reply from the DM, that it was a shorter version allowing such an attack.
• A pin has to be rolled each round. We did not do this (not DM's fault either).
• A pinned character cannot be attacked by the grappler with a weapon. The DM replied that it could do so.
• The Salamander had to move into the character's space to maintain the grapple (Step 4 in the grapple procedure), and that the +3 Longspear could not be used. Hence, if it uncoiled its tail, the character would no longer be grappled. The DM replied that those rules must only apply to humanoid characters, and that it would be logical for such a creature to do so.
• The character was greater invisible, and hence would still benefit from the 50% miss chance from the attacks. The DM allowed this, but was doubtful as he indicated the character was being dragged and soiled with dirt so that the Salamander would not have a miss chance.

Understanding that the DM can change the rules to whatever he wishes, the DM however does not believe that he used house rules in this situation. The group believes otherwise.

We have therefore resolved to ask the EN World community to comment on the above situation, and indicate if any house rules were being used so that we may better handle future encounters of the kind.

Andargor

 

[Egres]

The Salamander was attacking with a +3 Longspear, which cannot be used in adjacent square or the same square. The DM replied that the Salamander uncoiled its tail sufficiently to allow an attack from the +3 Longspear, and that it was a shorter version allowing such an attack.

Shorter version?

A pinned character cannot be attacked by the grappler with a weapon. The DM replied that it could do so.

HR.

unless:

The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

But that against other opponents is debateable.

The Salamander had to move into the character's space to maintain the grapple (Step 4 in the grapple procedure), and that the +3 Longspear could not be used

Incorrect.

From the SRD:

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space.

The DM replied that those rules must only apply to humanoid characters, and that it would be logical for such a creature to do so.

HR.

 

[Jeremy]

If the salamander wants to take -20 to it's grapple checks as is allowed by the improved grab ability, then it is not considered grappled and it can attack as such even though the grappled character is considered grappled.

If the salamander wants to attack a creature with a longspear that is inside of the threatened area of a longspear, and the DM wants to say it's a shorter longspear, he should just make it a spear or a shortspear. Both are legitimate weapons and the natural reach of a huge salamander I'm sure is quite sufficient. But calling it a longspear or doing longspear damage while giving it close range attack abilities should not fly.

Also, if it wants to take -20 to its grapple checks, this will also apply to the grapple check it makes each round to pin its victim and any checks the victim makes to break free.

If it doesn't want to take the -20, then it doesn't threaten an area and can only attack it's grappled victim with natural attacks or light weapons or grapple checks. Thems tha rules.

 

[Egres]

Skip did write another unofficial rule that could help here:

From the "Rules of the Game":

Using Reach Weapons up Close

Normally, when you wield a reach weapon, the area you threaten forms a hollow ring. You threaten a band of squares away from you, but not the band of squares right next to you. This is the game's way of representing the weapon's physical limits. If the business end of the weapon is at the end of a pole more than 5 feet from you, it's pretty hard to bring that end to bear against a foe right next to you.

Most reach weapons have fairly sturdy shafts, however, and there's no reason why you couldn't use the shaft to clobber someone. Likewise, there's no reason why you couldn't shorten your grip on the weapon so that the business end doesn't stick out so far. To represent these possibilities, you can allow a character to use a reach weapon to attack foes within his natural reach, but with a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. The penalties simulate all the difficulties the character has when employing the weapon in this fashion, such as striking with the shaft or messing up the weapon's usual leverage and balance

 

[Nail]

Nice quote, Egres.

However, RAW, the salamander can't use a longspear on adjacent opponents, and certainly can't use the longspear on a foe with whom he shares a space. Moreover, the pinned PC should have made a grapple check each round...and believe it or not, the PC could have escaped the pin (but not the grapple), then (on a succeeding round) pinned the huge salamander!

As for the invisibility, we've had a similar situation come up in our group, and we reduced the miss chance (to 20%) accordingly.