D&D 5E Of Wizards and specific 5e questions and musings

[cthulhu42]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

First things first: No, Ulktar did not see the bad guy coming. Lizard guy simply popped up out of murky water, at night time, right next to our fighter. As was mentioned, the enemy did not have to travel through Ulktar's attack zone, so I was skeptical of his ability to get in an AoO.

So yes, house rules. i agree that many of my issues with 5e can be easily addressed via house rules...IF...I were DM. But I'm not, and thus far our DM is playing it pretty much as written. And I agree with his choice to do so. Even if I were DMing, I think I'd want to give the system a fair chance as written. As someone pointed out, we've played less than ten sessions, and have only reached 4th level. It's a little early to start tinkering just yet, IMO. I think the only think I would do straight away is allow for the possibility to lose your dex bonus to AC under certain circumstances. Other than that, i'm happy to let things play out and see how we feel about it by, say, level 10 or so.

As far as the world as presented being pretty low magic (items), maybe those of you who swear that there are plenty of items to be found will be proven correct. All I'm saying is that, so far, the official starter adventure has been darn stingy.

And yes, I get that we want magic items to be wondrous and rare and much appreciated. I've been hearing that song for 33 years, and I agree with it for the most part. But in earlier editions it was assumed that a PC would have a certain amount of items to supplement his power, not to mention that magic items are freaking fun! I'm not asking for magical swords and wands to fall out of the sky, and I can live without magic shops, but I really do believe that items are an intrinsic part of the game. They keep players interested and, if you're allowed to purchase one now and again, it gives you something to spend your gold on.

And magic item creation was only as broken in 3e as you allowed it to be. Most players didn't have the patience for it, IME, but I certainly did. I was very fortunate to have a DM at the time who was not afraid to let me craft items, and it worked out surprisingly well. She compensated by scaling back the number of found items. Also it made for some very nice role playign moments. For example, our party's human ranger feel in love with the halfling rogue, and the two of them got married. As a wedding gift I crafted an amulet that allowed the rogue to enlarge herself to human size for a period of time to better facilitate... ahem... intimacy. In fact, i made as many items for other party members as I ever did for myself. That, and the cost in time, gold, and xp was a very real factor. I never had enough time, and even resorted to traveling to different planes where the time flow was different in order to craft since our DM kept us on the go, what with saving the world and all. I never seemed to have quite enough gold, and don't even get me started on the xp hit. Oh, and it cost feat slots too. My point it, for our group, it worked, and because I had crafted the items and had poured my own xp into them they were even more special than anything we found.

But anyway, I'm not here to convince anyone that my way is the only way.

What I think my issues with 5e really come down to is, is 5e made by Hasbro to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum and lowest common denominater to make the maximum amount of profit, or is it a game made by gamers for gamers? I think the answer is probably a little bit of both. There is no doubt that there are many things to like about the system. There's an elegance to much of it that I am really drawn to, and I look forward to delving deeper into it. Even things that I'm not so crazy about, like concentration, may win me over as time moves on and I gain more experience with them. For that matter, it's the player in me that doesn't like concentration. The DM side of me LOVES it! So yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what 5e can really do as we gain levels.

So here's another rules question: The Identify spell still requires the ever standard 100gp pearl, but then I noticed that it doesn't say that the spell consumes the pearl! Can this be true, that the pearl is a one time expenditure? If that's the case, then come here, 5e, and let me give you a big old hug!

 

[Gadget]

Thanks everyone for the replies.

First things first: No, Ulktar did not see the bad guy coming. Lizard guy simply popped up out of murky water, at night time, right next to our fighter. As was mentioned, the enemy did not have to travel through Ulktar's attack zone, so I was skeptical of his ability to get in an AoO.

One of the things that is really refreshing things about 5e is that it the shift in focus to rulings not rules. It requires a bit more DM adjudication than more recent editions and is a bit more abstract in places, but IMO more rewarding and fun once the adjustment is made.

So yes, house rules. i agree that many of my issues with 5e can be easily addressed via house rules...IF...I were DM. But I'm not, and thus far our DM is playing it pretty much as written. And I agree with his choice to do so. Even if I were DMing, I think I'd want to give the system a fair chance as written. As someone pointed out, we've played less than ten sessions, and have only reached 4th level. It's a little early to start tinkering just yet, IMO. I think the only think I would do straight away is allow for the possibility to lose your dex bonus to AC under certain circumstances. Other than that, i'm happy to let things play out and see how we feel about it by, say, level 10 or so.

I think you are wise to wait a little before just willy-nilly changing things off the cuff. To make good house rules, one has to get a good feel for how it affects the system and group as a whole and any indirect consequences. Having said that, as part of the rulings not rules philosophy, the DM has been given the tools of using advantage/disadvantage in these situations. The DM can rule that an opponent has advantage against you, or you have disadvantage on a dex saving throw. This allows the rules to avoid a lot of "fiddly bits".

And yes, I get that we want magic items to be wondrous and rare and much appreciated. I've been hearing that song for 33 years, and I agree with it for the most part. But in earlier editions it was assumed that a PC would have a certain amount of items to supplement his power, not to mention that magic items are freaking fun! I'm not asking for magical swords and wands to fall out of the sky, and I can live without magic shops, but I really do believe that items are an intrinsic part of the game.

5e is designed so that magic items are not necessary, or almost entirely optional. I'm not sure if that is completely the case, but does free one to have interesting and flavorful magic items, rather than necessary upgrades to character power. This is completely up to the DM and group though, and it is easy to 'break' the game with a Monty Haul type DM; yet that can be a fun play style for some groups, so it is up to you. They are just not mandatory.

They keep players interested and, if you're allowed to purchase one now and again, it gives you something to spend your gold on.

And magic item creation was only as broken in 3e as you allowed it to be. Most players didn't have the patience for it, IME, but I certainly did. I was very fortunate to have a DM at the time who was not afraid to let me craft items, and it worked out surprisingly well. She compensated by scaling back the number of found items. Also it made for some very nice role playign moments. For example, our party's human ranger feel in love with the halfling rogue, and the two of them got married. As a wedding gift I crafted an amulet that allowed the rogue to enlarge herself to human size for a period of time to better facilitate... ahem... intimacy. In fact, i made as many items for other party members as I ever did for myself. That, and the cost in time, gold, and xp was a very real factor. I never had enough time, and even resorted to traveling to different planes where the time flow was different in order to craft since our DM kept us on the go, what with saving the world and all. I never seemed to have quite enough gold, and don't even get me started on the xp hit. Oh, and it cost feat slots too. My point it, for our group, it worked, and because I had crafted the items and had poured my own xp into them they were even more special than anything we found.

You and I disagree about this. Especially using gold as a character optimization resource to 'get a head' of the curve (which is what 3e's 'magic item shops' basically became). I get that it can be fun, and especially the coolness of crafting your own items, but such things should be an optional add on systems in the hands of the DM and group to use according to their play style and tastes, not the default standard. Personally, I think magic items are a great thing about D&D and a cool addition to the game, but they are a spice to be added to taste, and I don't generally care for a cranking them out like iphones & tablets type of world, which can be inferred from some previous editions.

But anyway, I'm not here to convince anyone that my way is the only way.

Neither am I, and I hope I don't come across that way.

What I think my issues with 5e really come down to is, is 5e made by Hasbro to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum and lowest common denominater to make the maximum amount of profit, or is it a game made by gamers for gamers? I think the answer is probably a little bit of both. There is no doubt that there are many things to like about the system. There's an elegance to much of it that I am really drawn to, and I look forward to delving deeper into it. Even things that I'm not so crazy about, like concentration, may win me over as time moves on and I gain more experience with them. For that matter, it's the player in me that doesn't like concentration. The DM side of me LOVES it! So yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what 5e can really do as we gain levels.

Well, that is kind of a loaded question, WOTC is a for profit company and do want to make money on the D&D brand, there's no shame in that, yet I don't think these options are as mutually exclusive as your question seems to imply. I mean having a year (or more) open beta with a huge amount of user feedback does not lead to shadowing corporate profiteers torpedoing good game mechanics to sucker in unsuspecting rubes into buying inferior product. But there is no doubt compromises where made in the design to give the game a general appeal; it is probably the same for most design projects. As for concentration, look up the debate on Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard (LFQW) some time for a fun read.

So here's another rules question: The Identify spell still requires the ever standard 100gp pearl, but then I noticed that it doesn't say that the spell consumes the pearl! Can this be true, that the pearl is a one time expenditure? If that's the case, then come here, 5e, and let me give you a big old hug!

I believe it is just a one time purchase, so have fun. I also believe there is a rule for handling the item for a short rest and getting similar information.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think the main answer to all your problems is to House Rule the drek out of your game until you like it. Waiting on WotC to get off the butts to fix the problems is a lost cause. They have 8 people who are too busy working on how to put D&D on cereal boxes instead of add to 5e. In fact, people are starting to make money on fixing these problems. Enworld has it's own little patreon where they tackle stuff to make 5e more crunchy.

Hoard the Dairy Queen is back loaded with magic items. Once you actually find the hoard you will find a bunch of magic items then. Plus the bad guys start carrying magical items too. Lost Mimes of Fanta has quite a few magic items. The GM just has to add more if they feel the game is lacking. Magic Item creation is weak. Personally I think the DMG is the weakest of the three books all together. It feels like it was thrown together and all the good stuff was removed to make room for maps. But what can you do? Complaining here will just get a bunch of people coming to WotCs defense and accusing you of not being creative enough. I'd take what you liked about Pathfinder and make it work for 5e. Hit Points... Make a house rule that nerfs natural healing so no one gets hp back after a long rest, just half their hit dice. That way they can spend hit dice and then decide if that's good enough or choose to rest another day.

There are lots of things you can do to make the game better but you have to get away from relying on the stuff you don't like to be fixed in a book and do it yourself . Or wait for a third party to fill in the gaps.

Zaran's right. It's much better for your game to actually solve your own problems by making choices to improve it, rather than sit on your hands completely miserable while constantly coming onto ENWorld complaining about how miserable you are... only to discover not many other people here want to listen to your complaints since you are taking no personal responsibility for your own happiness. He's hit the nail right on the head.

 

[cthulhu42]

Did I mention that I'm not the DM, and therefore have no say in house rules?

 

[Tony Vargas]

So yes, house rules. i agree that many of my issues with 5e can be easily addressed via house rules...IF...I were DM. But I'm not, and thus far our DM is playing it pretty much as written.

The theory is, of course, that you would find another DM, or adapt your style to leverage the way he's running. The concept of a player getting something he wants out of a game is 'player entitlement' and, in 5e design philosophy, was the worst thing about 3.x and 4e, and to be avoided at all costs. If you want 5e to be the game you want to play, /run it/. That's what I do. It's fun. For me, playing 5e ranges from a boring chore to a frustrating chore, but running 5e can be a blast. It's kinda the opposite of 3.x, that way.

What I think my issues with 5e really come down to is, is 5e made by Hasbro to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum and lowest common denominater to make the maximum amount of profit, or is it a game made by gamers for gamers?

Yes. AFAICT - and I'm just a cynical jerk on the internet speculating wildly - the broadest possible spectrum that WotC determined D&D could appeal to consists of longtime players who hated 4e (and didn't much care for 3.x/Pathfinder, either) plus long-ago players who might return to the hobby, but last enjoyed the game in the 20th century.

5e is a lot like a 3rd edition of AD&D, standing conveniently between 2e and 3e in the evolutionary scale, like some sort of Piltdown Man.

Of course, that might also have something to do with Mike Mearls, who got into the industry in the 3e/d20 era, and who claims 2e as his favorite ed of D&D.

 

[Shiroiken]

So yes, house rules. i agree that many of my issues with 5e can be easily addressed via house rules...IF...I were DM. But I'm not, and thus far our DM is playing it pretty much as written. And I agree with his choice to do so. Even if I were DMing, I think I'd want to give the system a fair chance as written. As someone pointed out, we've played less than ten sessions, and have only reached 4th level. It's a little early to start tinkering just yet, IMO. I think the only think I would do straight away is allow for the possibility to lose your dex bonus to AC under certain circumstances. Other than that, i'm happy to let things play out and see how we feel about it by, say, level 10 or so.

RAW is a double edged sword. Playing the game exactly as written is fine... but you're then going to have the problems you have. I'll go into further detail below.

What I think my issues with 5e really come down to is, is 5e made by Hasbro to appeal to the broadest possible spectrum and lowest common denominater to make the maximum amount of profit, or is it a game made by gamers for gamers? I think the answer is probably a little bit of both. There is no doubt that there are many things to like about the system. There's an elegance to much of it that I am really drawn to, and I look forward to delving deeper into it. Even things that I'm not so crazy about, like concentration, may win me over as time moves on and I gain more experience with them. For that matter, it's the player in me that doesn't like concentration. The DM side of me LOVES it! So yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what 5e can really do as we gain levels.

It's designed to appeal to the largest audience possible, while still being flexible enough for diehards. This was the end result of 2 years of playtesting, and despite what was said on the forums throughout, the surveys said what the average gamer wanted (and cared about). It's not going to appeal to everyone, especially not those who enjoyed the mechanical tinkering allowed in 3E & Pathfinder. 5E might not be for you... AND THAT'S OK! You might be better off with 3E/Pathfinder, or you might eventually work with your DM to fix your issues (which are actually quite minor).

So here's another rules question: The Identify spell still requires the ever standard 100gp pearl, but then I noticed that it doesn't say that the spell consumes the pearl! Can this be true, that the pearl is a one time expenditure? If that's the case, then come here, 5e, and let me give you a big old hug!

Hug away then. The pearl is a one time cost, unless it's stolen, lost, or destroyed. I approve of this, because the cost doesn't pan out well (and never really did IMO).

 

[Blackwarder]

Just my two cents here, IME 5e is a game made by gamers for gamers who just want to sit down and play.

Warder

 

[Zaran]

Did I mention that I'm not the DM, and therefore have no say in house rules?

You can make suggestions to the GM. Although since you are doing a module he might not want to make changes. You either have to live with it and take notes and when you run your own game make the changes you want. Most people don't house rule things until they have done a few sessions though.

 

[cthulhu42]

Thanks again for all replies.

Lest I be misinterpreted, let me be clear: This is not meant to be a complaint thread about 5e. Overall, I give it a thumbs up. This is just meant to be a place3 to note first impressions and observations about the system, and a means to better wrap my head around the rules. Of course there are things about it that I might change if it were up to me, but I'm perfectly happy to give it a fair chance.

Shoot, I've had beefs with every new iteration of D&D, but the bottom line is that any system is only as good as the judge and players.

And no, I'm not going to go looking for a new DM. For a guy with very little experience running the game, he's doing a pretty good job. And I like my character quite a bit, so that's all good.

As a matter of fact, I was thinking today about another thing I like that they did for wizards, which is the d6 hd. It's nice not to be so squishy. In fact, i realized a session or tewo ago that, with my arcane ward active (I chose to spec in abjuration) I actually have the most hit points in the group! Granted, I got a nice con roll, but good grief, the wizard is rocking the most hp?! And speaking of the school specializations, I quite like that too. I look forward to being able to take some of the heat off the meat shields when we reach 6th level by taking some of their hits.

And besides all that, one of the reasons i started this thread was to eventually provide some real play examples of what a wizard is still capable of. I'd read through another thread where the poster was asking for just such a thing, as he was wondering if the wizard was still a viable choice. I believe that it absolutely is. So, in that spirit, here is an example of play from our last session, for anyone interested.

Note: I don't think this encounter was part of the HotDQ modual, but rather a side encounter formulated by our DM, so i don't think there are any spoilers here.

Heading for Balder's Gate, we decided to take a rather large boat down river. We boarded our horses and set sail under the guide of our captain and his crew. On the second noght out we spotted a bonfire on either bank, several hundred yards ahead of us. Fearing trouble, we anchored where we were and decided to head ashore in rowboats and then make our way toward the fires to investigate. Our captain told us that a ferry operated right about where the fires were, and he feared some shenanigans.

We boarded two rowboats and oared away from the ship, but didn't get far before we were beset by amphibious lizard men, three of them grabbing onto the side of Ulktar, Dakahin and Zukamesh's boat in an attempt to capsize them. Our friends fought them off as our own boat was attacked, and in due course I was grabbed and pulled overboard! Adrift in the river I quickly cast levitate on myself and zipped twenty feet into the air, avoiding the clutches of the lizard things as I did. I was just in time to see Zukamesh (our sorcerer) pulled from his boat, trapped by a mancatcher. I quickly threw him the end of my rope, which he caught as he was pulled under. I wrapped my end around my waist and shot further into the air. It became a tug of war, with me trying to lift Zukamesh out of harms way while the lizard man kept his grip on the man catcher, dangling from Zuk. Fortunately one of our archers put an arrow in the creature and he finally fell, freeing Zuk to cast his own levitate. Having fought the lizard men off, our party was rowing toward shore. i tossed down my line to them and they towed Zukamesh and I after them.

Once on dry land, we looked back at our boat and realized that it was now unmanned, presumably due to it having been boarded by lizard men. We also saw that, further downstream, the ferry had been turned into a boat catching trap. Our enemies had set the ferry ablaze and were using it's pullies to crank it into the path of our vessel. knowing we had little time, we raced toward the crank on our side of the river. Still levitating, I tossed the end of my rope to Gunner (our halfling ranger) who hopped up onto his pet panther and headed down the river bank at top speed, towing Zukamesh (still levitating himself) and I behind him.

Several of the lizard men were helping to turn the crank on our side in their attempt to move the burning ferry into position. We quickly began to pelt them with everything we had, although in my case I was down to Firebolts, having already used most of my spells to dispatch lizard men with scorching rays and sleep spells. Still, it was enough to disrupt them and before they could gather themselves for a decent defense, the rest of our party arrived and wiped them out.

Our fighters threw themselves at the wheel, playing a sort of reverse tug of war with the lizard men on the far side, attempting to reverse the course of the ferry. Seeing our boat getting closer and closer, I grabbed the ferry rope and began to pull myself out over the river (still levitating; 10 minute duration! Woot!) with Zukamesh following closely behind. We reached the middle of the river just as our boat caught itself up on the ferry line and Zuk and I were able to levitate upwards and climb aboard. Once there we ascertained that our captain and his crew had been dispatched by the lizard men. I yelled for our fellows on shore to cut the ferry line, and once they did we were once again adrift. We managed to wrestle the rudder in the direction we wanted to go and soon ran our craft aground on the safe side of the river, effectively saving our mounts.

So the take away from this encounter was not how much damage I was able to do (although i was able to take out at least two or three bad guys with sleep, and do some decent damage with scorching rays), but rather how the effective use of Levitate saved myself, and our other caster, and then our ship and horses. I was even able to find the captain's spyglass, which made being able to board the ship quite profitable. Any damage I dealt was just icing on the cake. And therein, I think, lies the true value of the wizard class. Not in raw damage, but rather the ways in which they can turn the tides of a battle in the parties favor. I don't expect to ever match our fighter's kill count. But I will control the battlefield and enable our melee guys to be that much more dangerous. Even with the mechanics I'm not so crazy about, 5e has not nerfed the amazing tactical applications that (IMO) only a wizard can achieve.

So there you go. And if any other interesting circumstances come up I'll post them too.

 

[neobolts]

My thoughts, some of which will echo what's already been said.

There's a feeling of it being almost TOO simple. Also there's just a hint of the generic about it; as if it's meant to appeal to everyone and be all things to all people. It feels a bit watered down. I do realize that we're just seeing the first books, and undoubtedly more will come with more options. I only hope that WOC will know when to say when.

There was a big push from playtesting to make combat go around the table quickly, so players didn't idle between turns as long. And it's working, combat is smoother than ever, with an "old school" vibe.

As you've played 3e, you've likely encountered the "bonus hunt" game where the combat scheeches to a halt as someone hunts for the situational modifiers and piles of self-buffs from spells and gear. For better or for worse, the adopted solution was threefold:

1. the Advantage and Disadvantage mechanics,
2. the end of buff stacking, and
3. the end of "feat taxes" and "item taxes" (near-manditory feat choices for your class to take, cloak of res., ring of prot.).

One specific example of this simplicity run amok is the fact that you can't lose your dex bonus to AC. Like, ever, apparently. That makes no sense to me, and it feels like the designers decided that we players just aren't smart enough to handle such a thing.

As a poster in another thread pointed out, anything that would deny dex to AC instead grants advantage. Anytime the designers could swap out an old mechanic for advantage, they did. All part of the speed up combat mindset. Either way the defender is penalized. (If you are houseruling it to "No dex bonus" for certain statuses like incapacitated, your should also remove the advantage b/c you are double penalizing the defender at that point.

I play wizards, and while there are some really interesting things they've done for the class in 5e, they've also neutered it prety severely. The concentration mechanic is heart breaking! i understand why they did it, but did it have to be done for the sake of the game? I don't think so. I've played and DMed high level wizards in earlier editions, and somehow we made it work

Buff stacking was a game-slowing mess, and got even worse in Pathfinder. They swung really hard the other way with 5e. Houserule this one if you need to. My biggest gripe is not the lack of stacking, but how easily conc spells break. I adopted Paraxis' minimum 10 damage from a attack to trigger the check. My players liked the change.

Which brings me to the generally low magic flavor of 5e thus far. Our party is now 4th level, and thus far we have not found a single magic item. Not one. I'm not asking for rings of protection and +1 swords, but how about a potion or scroll, just to let us know that they exist! My first order of business upon reaching Balder's Gate was to go hunting for scrolls to add to my spellbook, but nobody can seem to find any rules as to how much a freaking scroll costs! And all the while I am led to believe that I can buy a potion of healing for 50gp. There are no other potions for sale, mind you, but healing pots can certainly be found. That makes no good sense to me. The point is, it ought to be up to the individual DM to decide how much magic will be in his world, and yes, I know he still has that option, but in this, an official 5e adventure, the overall feeling is of a design team determined to make finding or crafting magic items not only difficult, but almost unpleasant.

I wrote the above "threefold" list before tackling your individual points, and it turns out they are pretty close. Again, it becomes a question of math stacking. I do feel like they are a little stingy with the wacky/wonderous items. I am throwing more of those in early, to get more of a 2e feel in my game.

Healing. The idea that you can gain back all of your lost hitpoints with a single 8 hour rest is ridiculous. Why not just give clerics a 1hp cantrip and call it good? I understand they didn't because the party would never need to rest again, but for crying out loud, 8 hours heals EVERYTHING? I have a much easier time believing that a cleric could have a 1hp cantrip than that.

I've been healing up with an overnight inn stay since playing Dragon Warrior on NES as a kid. Overnight heals don't bother me and I really don't care that it doesn't make sense. The alternative sounds boring.

Haven't played HotDQ, so I've got nothing to add there. Your awareness of the mechanics changes runs deep, I think you are going to have a good time with 5e!